theweatheroutlook

Remove ads from site

jhall
02 February 2023 10:44:29
There's a remarkable drop shown by the 06Z GFS op run in the 850mb temps between T+246 and T+252. It's so remarkable that I'm struggling to believe it. And then at T+258 it's gone again. I can only think that the 0Z chart somehow didn't get overwritten.
Cranleigh, Surrey
Quantum
02 February 2023 11:16:13
Some lobe trends. Keep in mind two single points may not be the best way to measure the lobes, for example the GFS6Z lobe is alot weaker than the ICON6Z lobe despite the numbers now being similar

Jan Mayen island/ Centre circ 0Z 05 Feb. Z500:


GFS6Z: 516/510
GFS0Z: 520/510

ICON6Z: 515/508
ICON0Z: 510/505

Anyway upshot is don't despair, ICON's lobe has weakened as much as GFS's lobe has strengthened.
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Quantum
02 February 2023 11:23:16
ARPEGE6Z does look worse though than ARPEGE0Z. Lobe a bit stronger there.
GEM6Z has a stronger lobe than the 0Z too.

Only ICON seems to have gone in the right direction :S
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Quantum
02 February 2023 11:34:57
Jan Mayen island Z500 ensembles 6Z vs 0Z. You can see the full 6Z set has a stronger lobe. Not great.

UserPostedImage

UserPostedImage
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
tallyho_83
02 February 2023 11:41:24
Why is everyone mentioning Lobe's here? I don't get it?

I think this small chance of an easterly is failing due to what's happening over the other side of the Atlantic!?
Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


ballamar
02 February 2023 11:47:04
Could just call the GFS 6z a pre cold spell wobble 😂. Just goes to show how difficult it is in our part of the world to get everything to fall in place. Seen some cracking charts though in this forlorn chase
Gandalf The White
02 February 2023 11:50:51

GFS det has been all over the place since the upgrade. Ens have never taken to this easterly with the Det a huge outlier on most runs. 

Originally Posted by: warrenb 



I thought that the ensemble suite ran using the same software?
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


+1
tallyho_83
02 February 2023 11:56:45

Could just call the GFS 6z a pre cold spell wobble 😂. Just goes to show how difficult it is in our part of the world to get everything to fall in place. Seen some cracking charts though in this forlorn chase

Originally Posted by: ballamar 



But what does "LOBE" mean 

I am convinced that our colder spell or easterly failing next week if it was to occur is down to what is happening in N. America?

Signs there could be another SW - maybe a wind reversal to give us a colder end to the month!?

http://www.weatheriscool.com/prod/gfs/eps/strat/u10serie_cfsRawCorrGefs.png 
Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Retron
02 February 2023 12:04:38

But what does "LOBE" mean

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


A secondary low, to give it its traditional name.

Just the latest in a long list of alternative names for secondary lows (see "shortwave" et al from years past!)
Leysdown, north Kent
warrenb
02 February 2023 12:10:41
From my understanding the Deterministic has had an upgrade but the ensemble members run with the old model.
Tonbridge 45m 
Quantum
02 February 2023 12:21:24

But what does "LOBE" mean 

I am convinced that our colder spell or easterly next week if it was to occur is down to what is happening in N. America?

Signs there could be another SW - maybe a wind reversal to give us a colder end to the month!?

http://www.weatheriscool.com/prod/gfs/eps/strat/u10serie_cfsRawCorrGefs.png 

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 



Upper level trough or vortex (some models have a closed circulation and some don't) that forms in the greenland sea area around T+63 hours as a split off from the main cold core low.

It is absolutely vital for what happens later on, and is the reason the GFS has disagreed with the other models. A strong lobe results in reduced heights, downstream, in scandanavia which delays HP building and results in the anticyclone forming further south when it does build.

You can predict exactly what is going to happen wrg to whether or not the scandi high/cold spell happens based on how strong the lobe is. The weaker, the better, on the GFS6Z it was stronger, hence the downgrade.


Also, I should be clear its not really a shortwave. The surface pattern is not that important, its the upper level pattern which determines the behaviour of the scandi high.
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
+1
Gandalf The White
02 February 2023 12:39:38

From my understanding the Deterministic has had an upgrade but the ensemble members run with the old model.

Originally Posted by: warrenb 



You may be right.  That was the case when they upgraded the Op but I thought they might have brought it in line by now.  At the time I queried what the value was in an ensemble suite running a different version of the software, because it just injects another variable into the mix.

Anyway, back to the models and the 06z ensemble suite is even less keen on a severe easterly - we have just 4 or 5 of the perturbations supporting it in around 6-7-8 days' time and just one at the end.

I'm still very sceptical, given the lack of cross-model support - still too much energy to the north.
Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Karl Guille
02 February 2023 13:00:01
6z ensembles are a huge downgrade compared to the 0z! 
St. Sampson
Guernsey
Saint Snow
02 February 2023 13:07:54

Why is everyone mentioning Lobe's here? I don't get it?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 




You need to keep your ear to the ground, mate

 

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
+3
doctormog
02 February 2023 13:12:17
Another failed midwinter easterly? I blame lobal warming.
Aberdeen
Current conditions (personal WS) 
+9
Rob K
02 February 2023 13:26:14

6z ensembles are a huge downgrade compared to the 0z! 

Originally Posted by: Karl Guille 


Yup, complete collapse to the milder scenario, with only the op run and a couple of other stragglers preserving a brief cold plunge, and I would expect those to have vanished by the 12Z. So predictable.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
02 February 2023 14:04:21

Upper level trough or vortex (some models have a closed circulation and some don't) that forms in the greenland sea area around T+63 hours as a split off from the main cold core low.

It is absolutely vital for what happens later on, and is the reason the GFS has disagreed with the other models. A strong lobe results in reduced heights, downstream, in scandanavia which delays HP building and results in the anticyclone forming further south when it does build.

You can predict exactly what is going to happen wrg to whether or not the scandi high/cold spell happens based on how strong the lobe is. The weaker, the better, on the GFS6Z it was stronger, hence the downgrade.


Also, I should be clear its not really a shortwave. The surface pattern is not that important, its the upper level pattern which determines the behaviour of the scandi high.
 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 



So you can predict exactly what is going to happen re scandi if you can predict exactly how the lobe will develop - which just takes the forecasting problem back to a day earlier. Not a dramatic advance in weather prediction IMO.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Quantum
02 February 2023 14:11:09

So you can predict exactly what is going to happen re scandi if you can predict exactly how the lobe will develop - which just takes the forecasting problem back to a day earlier. Not a dramatic advance in weather prediction IMO.

Originally Posted by: DEW 



I mean to be clear this is a very specific scenario. All I did was look at the forecasts with the cold spell, and those with out and tried to isolate the cause. It always came back to how that lobe was resolved, and there is a very easy to understand mechanism as to how the lobe effects the build too:

Strong GS lobe -> Low heights pushed over scandi -> HP builds further south -> Cold air shunted south

So what this means for this specific scenario is you don't have to worry about anything else, all the uncertainty is contained in how this lobe is resolved. So, for example, although ICON6Z doesn't look like a big upgrade, it really is because the Lobe is alot weaker. There almost seems to be a threashold where, if crossed, you get the cold weather. As things stand now we are '1 upgrade' away from a cold spell but the uncertainty is starting to reduce now, and I suspect the 12Z will be the last chance for the lobe to stay weak enough to get the cold scenario.


I should also point out that Z500 is one of the easiest things for models to predict. Upper level meterology is much easier than all the turbulant nonsense that goes on near the surface; so when you get big uncertainty in this upper level geopotential field; the consequences are pretty straight forward. Strong lobe = bad, weak lobe = good.
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Quantum
02 February 2023 14:17:29
Also having worked out the crucial area I raise two points about the lobe formation zone:

- Not many observations where it happens
- Highly mobile sea ice

So this is why the uncertainty is particularly high. I mean something as simple as a major sea ice drift before the 5th could impact the lobe formation and the models will not account for it.
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Saint Snow
02 February 2023 14:17:59
Thanks for the analysis, Q. Most enlightening 👍

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Quantum
02 February 2023 14:35:52
ECM6Z has a weaker lobe...
 
2024/2025 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 3 days with snow/sleet falling
18/11 (-6), 19/11 (-6), 23/11 (-2)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)
2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.
18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)
2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp): Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Brian Gaze
02 February 2023 14:36:07
The GEFS ensemble was upgraded last October. 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
ballamar
02 February 2023 15:14:52
ICON first nail in the cold spell coffin!! More to come
moomin75
02 February 2023 15:22:55

Yup, complete collapse to the milder scenario, with only the op run and a couple of other stragglers preserving a brief cold plunge, and I would expect those to have vanished by the 12Z. So predictable.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


Never bought into those fantasy charts that GFS was showing.

Writing really is well and truly on the wall now for this winter, another completely snowless one IMBY, although I accept other areas have had a bit.

Another poor winter looks done and dusted though, now looking forward to spring and summer, and hopefully something cheery.
Witney, Oxfordshire
100m ASL
warrenb
02 February 2023 15:28:03

The GEFS ensemble was upgraded last October. 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Thanks for the info.
Tonbridge 45m 

Remove ads from site

Ads