Quantum
01 February 2023 23:41:39
GEFS: The lobe. These are the 500hpa heights on Jan mayen island (it might not be the best place, but its easy to click on and its roughly in the right area).

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gensp/runs/2023020118/graphe10_00000___-8.90625_71.25_.gif
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The lobe 
passes through where there is that first dip in the Geop Z500 lines, you can see a remarkable spread for such a short amount of time ahead (Z500 is usually about the lowest uncertainty parameter there is). Anyway you can see it varies from about 508dm (pale pink) to 532dm (dark brown). The OP is actually on the lower side; remember the higher the better - this is the crucial feature that governs everything. Anyway let's look at the ECMWF ensembles for comparison purposes.

https://modeles3.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/ecmwf/runs/2023020112/grapheens3_0001_0_0_-8.90625_71.25_.gif
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Now look at the same Z500 lines when the lobe is passing over. Varying from 504dm to only 523dm. The OP is stuck at about 510dm, compare that to the GFS which is at about 518dm.

And the ICON? Around 502dm!!!!!


 
Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
Quantum
01 February 2023 23:44:45
Originally Posted by: Snow Hoper 

If you watch Aiden McGivern on the Meto 10 day trend, he seems to suggest that it's a low in the Med that's the driving force for the cold, with its placement being the key.

https://fb.watch/iqwCio_JcS/ 



Interesting video, but the Med low is imo a consequence rather than a cause (or a less distal cause if that makes sense). The entire placement of the scandi high system, including that med low is determined almost entirely (in the sense that all other variables are basically equal across all model runs) by the strength of that upper trough in the greenland sea. And the neat thing is that there is pretty much a perfect correlation between the strength of that lobe and the cold downstream several days later (18Z was a slight glitch where the surface pattern was a bit better despite the lobe being a bit stronger)
 
Twitter: @QuantumOverlord (general), @MedicaneWatch (medicane/TC stuff)
2023/2024 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):
29/11 (-6), 30/11 (-6), 02/12 (-5), 03/12 (-5), 04/12 (-3), 16/01 (-3), 18/01 (-8), 08/02 (-5)

Total: 8 days with snow/sleet falling.

2022/2023 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

18/12 (-1), 06/03 (-6), 08/03 (-8), 09/03 (-6), 10/03 (-8), 11/03 (-5), 14/03 (-6)

Total: 7 days with snow/sleet falling.

2021/2022 Snow days (approx 850hpa temp):

26/11 (-5), 27/11 (-7), 28/11 (-6), 02/12 (-6), 06/01 (-5), 07/01 (-6), 06/02 (-5), 19/02 (-5), 24/02 (-7), 30/03 (-7), 31/03 (-8), 01/04 (-8)
Total: 12 days with snow/sleet falling.
fairweather
02 February 2023 01:06:46
Plenty of ensemble support this time (18z)for the cold GFS op run. Be interesting over the next couple of days to see if the other models (mainly ECM and UKMO) go down this route or not, or meet halfway.
S.Essex, 42m ASL
tallyho_83
02 February 2023 01:17:12
Originally Posted by: fairweather 

Plenty of ensemble support this time (18z)for the cold GFS op run. Be interesting over the next couple of days to see if the other models (mainly ECM and UKMO) go down this route or not, or meet halfway.



No support at all or very little - Op was a cold outlier wasn't it? 18z if that's what you're referring too?

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I am ready for more chopping and changing but ENS members have trended colder in medium term - the models are all over the place. I think there is a lot of confusion following this warming of Stratosphere and what's really confusing the models is this deep pool of cold airmass heading into N, and NE America/Canada which is also helping to fuel up the jet which could be why the models are flip flopping each run? Furthermore, the MJO is in phase 3.5 which doesn't favour cold weather for NW Europe but then again we have weaker PV and there could be another stratospheric warming occurring around middle of February - but will split the already weakened PV and reverse zonal flow to bring us a cold end to February this time? - Time will tell!?

At least the PV has been wounded and significantly weaker than before this stratospheric warming last week so shouldn't take too much of a warming to split it this time IMO. 
Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
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Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


picturesareme
02 February 2023 03:34:44
Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

No support at all or very little - Op was a cold outlier wasn't it? 18z if that's what you're referring too?
 



Plenty dip into the -8C to -12C range,and more below -5C.
Also the majority have dew points dropping below freezing indicating at least the air should be cold. 
Ally Pally Snowman
02 February 2023 04:31:51
Blimey the GFS still refusing to let the easterly dream die. Another bitterly cold run this morning. 🥶🥶🥶

UKMO miles away again. 
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Ally Pally Snowman
02 February 2023 04:51:39
Lol the high migrates to Greenland and we get a northerly.  GFS 0z is giving us some entertainment at least.
 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
ballamar
02 February 2023 04:54:12
GFS vs UKMO & GEM unbelievable run from GFS again. As Quantum said that development to the North is key to the extent of ridging. Not in anyway resolved
Ally Pally Snowman
02 February 2023 04:56:50
GEM also a million miles away this morning. GFS still very much on it's own.

 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Ally Pally Snowman
02 February 2023 05:21:14
GEFS look better as well P15 the star of the show.
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
doctormog
02 February 2023 06:09:53
Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

GEFS look better as well P15 the star of the show.



The GEFS mean data are very much in line with the other models’ output with high pressure centred somewhere to the east of the UK (in contrast to the op run).

I know there are a few cold options in the set but the overall picture still has a cold easterly as very much the minority option. It does however look like the outlook is largely anticyclonic for more S and E parts at least.
nsrobins
02 February 2023 06:34:24
Short GEFS and the OP brings the majority of its suite with it with the mean 850 now -6 by the 7th (London). 
We’ve seen some stark differences between the main players before but this is a proper chalk and cheese standoff. Admittedly it’s ‘only’ a 600 mile shift in the position of the high, but the ground truth couldn’t be more diverse.
I’d love to know what an experienced professional makes of the current battle of the NWP - I might have to ask.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
doctormog
02 February 2023 06:47:15
The ECM supports the GEFS mean and the other models that go out to around day 8 on the 00z op run so far: https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/ECMOPEU00_192_1.png  

The GFS op run is very much on its own in the medium to longer term. 

For comparison here is the 00z GEFS ensemble mean at the same time point https://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSAVGEU00_192_1.png 
Ally Pally Snowman
02 February 2023 07:05:04
You'd have to think the GFS Op will come into line later today. 
Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
ballamar
02 February 2023 07:11:23
Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

You'd have to think the GFS Op will come into line later today. 



it’s just like being married, never wrong until they are wrong but they were right in their own way
nsrobins
02 February 2023 07:15:20
Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

You'd have to think the GFS Op will come into line later today. 


I agree with this and Michael makes good points, but it’s the consistency of the GFS OP that I find remarkable. One or two going against its own suite and the other NWP (for simplicity EC and UKM) is typical but 5 or so OP runs in sequence showing broadly the same solution and one that is starkly different to the opposition is remarkable.
Dog with a bone doesn’t do it justice.
Neil
Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
doctormog
02 February 2023 07:36:03
You’re right Neil and it would be remarkable and fascinating if the high res GFS runs end up being closer the actual outcome. As you say the consistency in the face of “adversity” is notable!
Rob K
02 February 2023 07:41:27
We’ve seen it so many times though in winter: the GFS doggedly sticking to a winter wonderland scenario while all the other models have long since cottoned onto reality. Then it suddenly flips, usually to an even milder run than the other models, and all sign of cold weather vanished from the ensemble in a single run. 
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Retron
02 February 2023 07:53:38
Originally Posted by: Rob K 

We’ve seen it so many times though in winter: the GFS doggedly sticking to a winter wonderland scenario while all the other models have long since cottoned onto reality. Then it suddenly flips, usually to an even milder run than the other models, and all sign of cold weather vanished from the ensemble in a single run. 


Just one of the 51 EPS members (0z today) goes below -10C at 850 in the next week for London:

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/opencharts_meteogram?base_time=202302020000&epsgram=classical_plume&lat=51.5084&lon=-0.125533&station_name=London 

That compares with 9 out of 31 for the GEFS.

It really is quite an amazing contrast!
Leysdown, north Kent
Brian Gaze
02 February 2023 08:04:44
No support for GEFS from MOGREPS-G either.

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