JACKO4EVER
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 1:37:52 PM

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


 


Looks like a significant shift towards a less cold outlook for the rest of this year and more uncertainty during January.



yes a significant shift as you say, plus with the ENS painting a dire picture there is little on offer if it’s cold weather your after. I said a few days back that IMO we are entering a crucial phase for this winter, if the SSW does not propogate as forecast then there could be big disappointment- and even if it does materialise it does not necessarily mean it will impact us as some hope. 


My best guess for Christmas would be quiet and cool, some sunshine though frost early and late where skies clear. Thereafter anyone’s guess. 

Retron
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 1:46:08 PM

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


Well, comparing the current strat forecast to the SSW in February, it seems clear that it's much weaker and shorter lasting than February's. 11 days after the strat first goes above 0C, the vortex is still powerful and right over our side, while the warming has more or less fizzled out (no yellow colours left) :




Compare that with the GFSP for the same time though, and it's a different story. Both GFS(P) and ECM show a full-on split happening, which boosts the chances of (but still doesn't gaurantee) a proper cold spell in January.


NB - GFS(P) has been rock-solid on a split over the past few runs, whereas GFS just shows a displacement. The knock-on effects of the two options would be quite different!



Leysdown, north Kent
Rob K
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:13:00 PM

Originally Posted by: Retron 


 


Compare that with the GFSP for the same time though, and it's a different story. Both GFS(P) and ECM show a full-on split happening, which boosts the chances of (but still doesn't gaurantee) a proper cold spell in January.


NB - GFS(P) has been rock-solid on a split over the past few runs, whereas GFS just shows a displacement. The knock-on effects of the two options would be quite different!




 


The temperatures look a lot lower than they were back in Feb, though - in February there was nothing but pale blues and greens across the northern hemisphere for several days!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
ballamar
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:28:55 PM
Nice blocked settled run so far GFS
David M Porter
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:37:04 PM

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


 


The temperatures look a lot lower than they were back in Feb, though - in February there was nothing but pale blues and greens across the northern hemisphere for several days!



I'm not sure that this has anything to do with it, but by the time the SSW in February this year took place, we were nearly two months further into the process of the sun working its way northwards and, in turn, the days lengthening.


 


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Retron
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:37:44 PM

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


The temperatures look a lot lower than they were back in Feb, though - in February there was nothing but pale blues and greens across the northern hemisphere for several days!



Indeed, but the thing to consider is that the vortex usually weakens throughout February. At this time of year it should really be ramping up, reaching its peak in early January.


As can be seen in the link below, the GEFS is actually showing a record reverse zonal flow for the time of year.


http://weatheriscool.com/index.php/stratosfaren-zonalvind-10hpa-60n-gfs-ens/


(The February minima were set this year, of course!)


Leysdown, north Kent
Brian Gaze
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:38:55 PM

This is very interesting.



Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
Heavy Weather 2013
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 4:47:34 PM

Some interesting changes this run:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU12_177_1.png


Compared to


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_177_1.png


It wouldn't take much tweaking from here to deliver something interesting


 


It doesn't really deliver much further into the run. But the ridging looks better. It give us something to hold onto mind.


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Rob K
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:07:13 PM

Originally Posted by: Heavy Weather 2013 


Some interesting changes this run:


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU12_177_1.png


Compared to


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_177_1.png


It wouldn't take much tweaking from here to deliver something interesting


 


It doesn't really deliver much further into the run. But the ridging looks better. It give us something to hold onto mind.



I don't think we can expect to see any northern blocking appearing in FI for another week or two at least, given when the SSW is modelled. As far as I can see, the warming pushes a very strong vortex over towards Canada, which is what we are seeing at the end of the current GFS run, with a very flat zonal pattern due to very low heights over Canada and Greenland.


If the vortex does end up splitting then maybe we will start seeing blocking appearing in the second half of January. But the charts currently only go out to Jan 4, so it will probably be at least 10 days before we start seeing the eye candy.


 


Just my thoughts, not meant to be expert opinion!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Heavy Weather 2013
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:15:42 PM

Originally Posted by: Rob K 


 


I don't think we can expect to see any northern blocking appearing in FI for another week or two at least, given when the SSW is modelled. As far as I can see, the warming pushes a very strong vortex over towards Canada, which is what we are seeing at the end of the current GFS run, with a very flat zonal pattern due to very low heights over Canada and Greenland.


If the vortex does end up splitting then maybe we will start seeing blocking appearing in the second half of January. But the charts currently only go out to Jan 4, so it will probably be at least 10 days before we start seeing the eye candy.


 


Just my thoughts, not meant to be expert opinion!



Thanks Rob. I am hoping whatever happens something delivers next month - that being said, something is different in the 12z ensembles


Interestingly I have taken a look through GEFS and I have to say there are a number of runs now toying with something different next week in the 144-172 range.


P7: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSP07EU12_138_2.png


P13: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSP13EU12_138_2.png


P14: http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSP14EU12_138_1.png


http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSP15EU12_138_2.png 


 


 


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
Heavy Weather 2013
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:21:04 PM

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


This is very interesting.




This idea is not without support. This I feel is a significant change the 00z and 06z run. None the less, could all change again


Mark
Beckton, E London
Less than 500m from the end of London City Airport runway.
JACKO4EVER
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:34:23 PM
Lots of differences run to run- something is afoot
Ally Pally Snowman
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 5:47:46 PM

There really will have to be a massive flip in the output  for any significant cold in the next 2 weeks. Think its very unlikely . Mid January different story though.


 


Having said this the GFS ensembles just starting to look a bit interesting not many but a few good ones P10 the best!


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Whether Idle
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 6:07:01 PM

Diagramme GEFS


Looks like either a cold a mild-ish high.  I think a mild-ish high is more likely to hold position up to the turn of the year.


 


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Russwirral
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 6:30:18 PM
Would take a christmas miracle in the face of such consistent oranges and yellows... but you cant look at this evenings charts and not say there isnt a tiny bit of interest in how the pressure builds over the UK...

Plenty of unresolved features all around it.

This could end up a very interesting few days model watching....
Arcus
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 6:44:27 PM

Originally Posted by: JACKO4EVER 

Lots of differences run to run- something is afoot


Yep, I'm not trusting any NWP as far as I could throw it until the mid range is resolved. A look at the ECM 12z Op compared to GFS et al tells you everything (or nothing...)


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
Rob K
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 6:47:23 PM

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 

Would take a christmas miracle in the face of such consistent oranges and yellows... but you cant look at this evenings charts and not say there isnt a tiny bit of interest in how the pressure builds over the UK... 


I think any early pressure rise north of the UK is almost guaranteed to be steamrollered flat as the vortex gets squeezed across to this side of the pole by the warming taking place in the next few days. I would expect to see pressure anchored well to our south until the second week of Jan or so - maybe if HP hangs on in the southern half of the country it might be reasonably settled but I don't think we can escape a couple of weeks of deep purples on the charts to our northwest before anything exciting happens.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
David M Porter
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 6:48:40 PM

What is becoming more and more clear IMO is that early next week seems to be about the limit of the reliable range when it comes to forecasting the weather at the moment, based on my observations of today's output.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"Let us not take ourselves too seriously. None of us has a monopoly on wisdom, and we must always be ready to listen and respect other points of view."- Queen Elizabeth II 1926-2022
Bertwhistle
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:02:59 PM

Going back a few years, somebody used to do a review of the accuracy of the GFS, ECM and-I think- MetO forecasts at some time out (\I think it might have been T+120, T+ 144 etc). Was it Gav or GW? I used to find that comparison worth note, and wondered if it had time-of-year patterns too; i.e. was GFS more accurate at +120 in summer? Etc.


 


Does anybody else remember this, or know why it stopped?


Bertie, Itchen Valley.
'We'll never see 40 celsius in this country'.
Arcus
Wednesday, December 19, 2018 7:07:06 PM

Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle 


Going back a few years, somebody used to do a review of the accuracy of the GFS, ECM and-I think- MetO forecasts at some time out (\I think it might have been T+120, T+ 144 etc). Was it Gav or GW? I used to find that comparison worth note, and wondered if it had time-of-year patterns too; i.e. was GFS more accurate at +120 in summer? Etc.


 


Does anybody else remember this, or know why it stopped?



Model accuracy stats are always available here:


http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS_vsdb/


 


 


Ben,
Nr. Easingwold, North Yorkshire
30m asl
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