The Weather Outlook

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Phil24
17 January 2021 19:25:52

 

Sorry I am confused MMW and nocked for six?

 

Please explain?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Major Mid Winter warming caused be the SSW. The Winter PV usually camps itself over the pole.  It’s as you obviously are aware of is nature’s way of keeping the intense cold restricted to that region. 
but there are circumstances that can effect its behaviour.  One of those is warming of the Strat.  We at 60N parallel are on the outer fringes of it’s usual influence, but occasionally it goes on walkabout, it gets displaced, it splits, but the intense cold associated with it stays with it. 

The nocked for six comment is a term I use to refer to its current behaviour, its been pushed out if its comfort zone and is not stable. As you are quite aware the PV effects atmospheric conditions from the upper Strat to the Ground “Trop” which is a conundrum of possibilities at the best of times, much more disturbed than events above. 

So if it isn’t behaving in a manner which would be considered normal, why would models be able to cope with conditions that are outside their comfort zone.  They can’t. 

I have been watching the models for weeks and they struggle to cope with anything that verifies beyond 3 or 4 days particularly in the last 10 days or so.  

it’s still mid winter ish, I’m no graduate in this subject so my opinion is just that an opinion, it’s garnered from reading and research, it’s not perfect in its presentation and will obviously omit some detail that the tech geeks find imperative.  But it’s no different to posting a million and one pics of models that predict an event that never verify  ten days from now with a JFF comment. 

 

RobN
  • RobN
  • Advanced Member
17 January 2021 19:28:05

Having said that, on a local history website I have found a transcript of a diary of a resident of my town from the 1870s, and the amount of references to snow, frost and skating on local ponds is remarkable!

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Here there is a reliable local historical account of a woman returning to our village from market in Cambridge on Saturday 2nd February 1799. On the way back she was thrown from her horse in a blizzard and taking shelter under a hedge she was buried under a snow drift for for eight days until she was found and rescued.

In these parts today, the idea of (a) a blizzard (b) a snow drift deep enough to bury a person (c) a snow drift lasting for eight days, all seems completely fantastical.


Rob

In the flatlands of South Cambridgeshire 15m ASL.

tallyho_83
17 January 2021 19:37:17

 

It is interesting as a general theme just several 100 miles apart in terms of location to sink the high pressure down bringing the colder easterlies / NE’s into play hopefully.

Martin

Originally Posted by: marting 

Yes we shall see..

I don't like the look of those LP systems spinning off the coast of NE seaboard of USA/Canada as it could blast up the jet and give us cyclogenis. 


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

tallyho_83
17 January 2021 19:39:25

 

Major Mid Winter warming caused be the SSW.

 

Originally Posted by: Phil24 

Thanks makes a little more sense now.


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

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Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

roadrunnerajn
17 January 2021 19:39:34

 

Here there is a reliable local historical account of a woman returning to our village from market in Cambridge on Saturday 2nd February 1799. On the way back she was thrown from her horse in a blizzard and taking shelter under a hedge she was buried under a snow drift for for eight days until she was found and rescued.

In these parts today, the idea of (a) a blizzard (b) a snow drift deep enough to bury a person (c) a snow drift lasting for eight days, all seems completely fantastical.

Originally Posted by: RobN 

I have also read that account and often imagine what it must of been like to live through those conditions at that time.


Germoe, part of the breakaway Celtic Republic. 80m asl
roadrunnerajn
17 January 2021 19:40:56

 

Thanks makes a little more sense now.

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Don’t you just love acronyms...


Germoe, part of the breakaway Celtic Republic. 80m asl
jhall
17 January 2021 20:03:19

 

Here there is a reliable local historical account of a woman returning to our village from market in Cambridge on Saturday 2nd February 1799. On the way back she was thrown from her horse in a blizzard and taking shelter under a hedge she was buried under a snow drift for for eight days until she was found and rescued.

In these parts today, the idea of (a) a blizzard (b) a snow drift deep enough to bury a person (c) a snow drift lasting for eight days, all seems completely fantastical.

Originally Posted by: RobN 

I remember that story too, though in the version I read I think she was walking back from market when she blundered into the snowdrift. But I'd have thought that even in Cambridgeshire there must have been one or two blizzards of comparable severity well within living memory, even if they are rarer than in the past. ISTR that there was a nasty blizzard in your part of the world in February 1979 for instance.


Cranleigh, Surrey
picturesareme
17 January 2021 20:11:43

 

Major Mid Winter warming caused be the SSW. The Winter PV usually camps itself over the pole.  It’s as you obviously are aware of is nature’s way of keeping the intense cold restricted to that region. 
but there are circumstances that can effect its behaviour.  One of those is warming of the Strat.  We at 60N parallel are on the outer fringes of it’s usual influence, but occasionally it goes on walkabout, it gets displaced, it splits, but the intense cold associated with it stays with it. 

The nocked for six comment is a term I use to refer to its current behaviour, its been pushed out if its comfort zone and is not stable. As you are quite aware the PV effects atmospheric conditions from the upper Strat to the Ground “Trop” which is a conundrum of possibilities at the best of times, much more disturbed than events above. 

So if it isn’t behaving in a manner which would be considered normal, why would models be able to cope with conditions that are outside their comfort zone.  They can’t. 

I have been watching the models for weeks and they struggle to cope with anything that verifies beyond 3 or 4 days particularly in the last 10 days or so.  

it’s still mid winter ish, I’m no graduate in this subject so my opinion is just that an opinion, it’s garnered from reading and research, it’s not perfect in its presentation and will obviously omit some detail that the tech geeks find imperative.  But it’s no different to posting a million and one pics of models that predict an event that never verify  ten days from now with a JFF comment. 

 

Originally Posted by: Phil24 

60N?? Bulk of the UK is between 50-55N :) 

Gandalf The White
17 January 2021 20:17:59

 

60N?? Bulk of the UK is between 50-55N :) 

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 

Sorry but isn't that just unnecessary nit picking about one minor point of an interesting post?

 


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



White Meadows
17 January 2021 20:39:22

 

Here there is a reliable local historical account of a woman returning to our village from market in Cambridge on Saturday 2nd February 1799. On the way back she was thrown from her horse in a blizzard and taking shelter under a hedge she was buried under a snow drift for for eight days until she was found and rescued.

In these parts today, the idea of (a) a blizzard (b) a snow drift deep enough to bury a person (c) a snow drift lasting for eight days, all seems completely fantastical.

Originally Posted by: RobN 

Amazing story writers they had in those days. 

doctormog
17 January 2021 20:44:08

Slightly off topic but the UK’s latitude ranges from just below 50° N to over 60° N (in case anyone cared!)


picturesareme
17 January 2021 20:54:39

 

Sorry but isn't that just unnecessary nit picking about one minor point of an interesting post?

 

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

You're a fine one to talk when it comes to nit picking, however is was just a correction of minor yet significant detail. The shetland islands lay roughly 60N. Conversely 10 degrees south of the UK would have you in the middle of the Mediterranean. It might not seem much but those degrees can have a significant effect on the regional climate :) 

overland
17 January 2021 20:57:32

 

I remember that story too, though in the version I read I think she was walking back from market when she blundered into the snowdrift. But I'd have thought that even in Cambridgeshire there must have been one or two blizzards of comparable severity well within living memory, even if they are rarer than in the past. ISTR that there was a nasty blizzard in your part of the world in February 1979 for instance.

Originally Posted by: jhall 

 

I grew up in Staffordshire and between 78 and 85 there were at least 4 snow storms which I'd class as blizzards. The one in 85 left drifts that were as high as a top deck of a double decker - fantastic times climbing over them. Having said that i don't think the frequency of snow falling has changed it is more the quantity.


Mumbles, Swansea. 80m asl
picturesareme
17 January 2021 20:57:47

Slightly off topic but the UK’s latitude ranges from just below 50° N to over 60° N (in case anyone cared!)

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

Which is quite a distance :)  I'm assuming just below 50N are the Channel Islands? 

Phil24
17 January 2021 21:00:21

 

Sorry but isn't that just unnecessary nit picking about one minor point of an interesting post?

 

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

👍

60N is a boundary that covers the majority of the hemisphere that we live in, in global terms, it’s quite acceptable to use it as a generic term and it’s often referred to as a reference for our part of the world. Thanks for the support, but some have no concept of the bigger picture and find it difficult to look outside the box they are in. 

doctormog
17 January 2021 21:05:27

 

Which is quite a distance :)  I'm assuming just below 50N are the Channel Islands? 

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 

No, it was the Isles of Scilly I was thinking of.

(Technically speaking the Channel Islands are not officially in the British Isles). Apologies for being off topic again. 


picturesareme
17 January 2021 21:12:02

 

No, it was the Isles of Scilly I was thinking of.

(Technically speaking the Channel Islands are not officially in the British Isles). Apologies for being off topic again. 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

Oh yeah of course the Isles of scilly ☺ 

Rob K
17 January 2021 21:19:07

 

Oh yeah of course the Isles of scilly ☺ 

Originally Posted by: picturesareme 

And the Lizard peninsula just about sticks below 50 degrees north too. Mainland GB ranges from about 49.96N at the Lizard to 58.67N at Dunnet Head. Include islands and I make it about 49.86N to 60.86N.

Anyway back to models and the 12Z GEFS has some interest - the mean keeps the cold snap going a bit longer, and a definite cluster prolong it right out to the 26th (including the op and control). Indeed some runs barely have a mild blip at all before going colder again and there is a definite trend downwards at the end too.

 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

Shropshire
17 January 2021 21:27:52

 

Yes we shall see..

I don't like the look of those LP systems spinning off the coast of NE seaboard of USA/Canada as it could blast up the jet and give us cyclogenis. 

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

The jet is already becoming very active this week - whatever happens the SSW has probably saved us from a zonality on steroids spell.


From December 27th 2020, zonality will be banned from mixing with the UK. We appreciate that this may come as a shock to younger people and old Uncle Barty. This ban will last for a minimum of ten days.
Ally Pally Snowman
17 January 2021 21:34:35

Ecm means look very very poor plenty of flooding and little snow .

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&run=12&time=216&lid=AVG&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref

 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
sunny coast
17 January 2021 21:37:17

 

As a teenager in the 60's, and living in the Yorkshire Dales I can say I saw my share of deep drifting snow in that period, wonderful days. I can also say that there were many, many times when we had raw, miserable, cloudy, wet, windy weather that was just a tiny bit too warm for snow, or started off as snow, got a good blanket laid, only to hear the dreaded drip, drip drip of a slow but constant thaw and all that lovely snow and effort wasted! Temps would then stay between 3 and 6c for several days. Miserable. And just for balance...some of the summers were abysmal in the 60's. Days of cloud and 13c as the max. 22c was a heatwave.

Originally Posted by: Bow Echo 

  indeed 60s summers pretty much all poor or just awful  a very cool decade indeed . 

Rob K
17 January 2021 21:39:24

Ecm means look very very poor plenty of flooding and little snow .

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/topkarten.php?map=1&model=ecm&var=2&run=12&time=216&lid=AVG&h=0&mv=0&tr=24#mapref

 

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

 Looks almost identical to the GEFS mean at the same times (216 and 240) in terms of 850s and very similar in terms of pressure too.

I'm happy enough with the GEFS ensemble in terms of chances of cold weather so the ECM is more of the same.

Remember that the day 9 and 10 period is the absolute highest point of the mean on the GEFS too.

 

Here for comparison at T240:

GEFS mean:

ECM mean:

 

Allowing for the different map projection, the track of the 0C and -5C lines is almost identical. The ECM one "looks" milder because the WZ chart uses yellow for the >0C temperature but on Meteociel it's green and doesn't go yellow until 8C.

 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

Shropshire
17 January 2021 21:45:03

 

 Looks almost identical to the GEFS mean at the same times (216 and 240) in terms of 850s and very similar in terms of pressure.

I'm happy enough with the GEFS ensemble in terms of chances of cold weather so the ECM is more of the same.

Remember that the day 9 and 10 period is the absolute highest point of the mean on the GEFS too.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Yes both ECM & GFS have both followed a similar path for a few days, it's the logical solution with the jet going under the retreating heights to the NW. But we may be seeing a trend for the Iberian High to be less influential, only minor changes are needed to get some or all parts on the colder side of the PFJ.


From December 27th 2020, zonality will be banned from mixing with the UK. We appreciate that this may come as a shock to younger people and old Uncle Barty. This ban will last for a minimum of ten days.
Ally Pally Snowman
17 January 2021 21:54:04

 

 Looks almost identical to the GEFS mean at the same times (216 and 240) in terms of 850s and very similar in terms of pressure too.

I'm happy enough with the GEFS ensemble in terms of chances of cold weather so the ECM is more of the same.

Remember that the day 9 and 10 period is the absolute highest point of the mean on the GEFS too.

 

Here for comparison at T240:

GEFS mean:

ECM mean:

 

Allowing for the different map projection, the track of the 0C and -5C lines is almost identical. The ECM one "looks" milder because the WZ chart uses yellow for the >0C temperature but on Meteociel it's green and doesn't go yellow until 8C.

 

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

There both pretty rubbish if u like snow say south Birmingham . Not sharing the optimism I'm afraid. The colder spell at the end of the week looks to marginal for the south and then it gets even milder. 

 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
tallyho_83
17 January 2021 21:54:44

 

The jet is already becoming very active this week - whatever happens the SSW has probably saved us from a zonality on steroids spell.

Originally Posted by: Shropshire 

With wet weather last week and more this week you would not know the difference. It's as zonal as it can get as far as i am aware - despite a lot of Northern Blocking and negative AO/ NAO.


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

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