It over now since October came with lot of rain and no way it drought anymore.  Lot of flooding around here and house in Meriden was flooded as it sit on the lowest part of the main road on my way to pick her up then on the way back a guy was unblocking the drain so half way of the road less flooding and another guy also unblocking drain in side street and large flood on the country road so our car managed to get though. 

We need a break from the rain now.

Remember UK is not Namibia, Death Valley or Sahara, it will always get very wet no matter what on our latitude level.

I don't often comment on others posts, but this shows  a marked "IMBY" bias, and also a lack of understanding of drought.

 It may well be raining and there may well have been surface flooding, but by no means does that mean that drought is over. For drought to be over aquifiers must be recharged, reservoirs must be refilled and water must be percolating in the top layers of soil such that groundwater springs must be able to flow at normal volume.

In many parts of the country this is not yet the case, far from it.

I accept that some parts of the country (particularly the northwest) have had adequate if not surfeit rainfall, and are not in drought. And when I say country I men the UK and not just England.

Please understand that a thoroughly wet day, even week, does not mean the end of a drought.

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I don't often comment on others posts, but this shows  a marked "IMBY" bias, and also a lack of understanding of drought.

 It may well be raining and there may well have been surface flooding, but by no means does that mean that drought is over. For drought to be over aquifiers must be recharged, reservoirs must be refilled and water must be percolating in the top layers of soil such that groundwater springs must be able to flow at normal volume.

In many parts of the country this is not yet the case, far from it.

I accept that some parts of the country (particularly the northwest) have had adequate if not surfeit rainfall, and are not in drought. And when I say country I men the UK and not just England.

Please understand that a thoroughly wet day, even week, does not mean the end of a drought.

 Furthermore, 5 inches of rain falling doesn’t equate to that amount percolating the ground.  If it’s heavy rain, most will run off.  If we get floods, it doesn’t mean the ground is soaked. 

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 Furthermore, 5 inches of rain falling doesn’t equate to that amount percolating the ground.  If it’s heavy rain, most will run off.  If we get floods, it doesn’t mean the ground is soaked. 

It will be soaked when flooded as it will eventually seep underground.  Heavy rain inland does not run off to the sea but go underground, rivers and lakes, only on the coastal areas see rain water run off to the sea.  Soil is very wet and not dry since September.  Any dry spells now does not dry up until March the earliest.

 

It will be soaked when flooded as it will eventually seep underground.  Heavy rain inland does not run off to the sea but go underground, rivers and lakes, only on the coastal areas see rain water run off to the sea.  Soil is very wet and not dry since September.  Any dry spells now does not dry up until March the earliest.

 

It will run off into the drains or streams and then rivers and the sea much more quickly than soaking into the ground.

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It will run off into the drains or streams and then rivers and the sea much more quickly than soaking into the ground.

Which is argument for having more green and wooded areas in & around urban areas. Run off is a man-made thing. 

 

It will run off into the drains or streams and then rivers and the sea much more quickly than soaking into the ground.

 I can testify to this. The UK is the most geological diverse country in the world. I can excavate a swimming pool in an area and I only have to move a matter of yards/miles and the sub soil changes from place to place, say from clay to rock to high water tables, to sand and so on.

When we had client leads come through the first thing we would check was the area and house names... i.e Sandy close, Rock cottage, River cottage, Wellfielld avenue, Stonehouse and so on. Secondly we'ed examin the area loking for streams, natural ponds, rock outcrops stone buildings and walls. Thirdly we try to rely on the local authority and client information on the history of the area, i'e  has it ever flooded in this area.? Where is the nearest quarry etc? talk to the local buildersmerchant.

My point is some areas soak up the water but most just run off to the sea., especially if there's been a drought as I bet any money you like that even with plenty of trees around it would take ages for the ground to absorb the surface rain water.

So to cap, from even this moment it will still take much, much longer for the ground to even begin to take up all the rain water and the roots to absorb the rain water the UK has experienced so far this year. In fact if we have an 1987 style storm or storms You can be sure there will be as many trees down as there were in the 1987 storm. 

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Which is argument for having more green and wooded areas in & around urban areas. Run off is a man-made thing. 

 Agreed.

As Darren highlights it continues to be a mild outlook. Good for everyone’s heating costs!

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It will be soaked when flooded as it will eventually seep underground.  Heavy rain inland does not run off to the sea but go underground, rivers and lakes, only on the coastal areas see rain water run off to the sea.  Soil is very wet and not dry since September.  Any dry spells now does not dry up until March the earliest.

No, that’s wrong. It runs from drains into rivers which all go to the sea.  The reason we get floods is that it can’t drain fast enough.  It makes it worse that the ground was baked and hard during the heat of the summer.  For rain to soak down, it needs to be steady and prolonged. 

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It will run off into the drains or streams and then rivers and the sea much more quickly than soaking into the ground.

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Which is argument for having more green and wooded areas in & around urban areas. Run off is a man-made thing.

"Man made" You mean climate change?

Btw Mods, As this is a little off topic, if it annoys you, and you want to begin/transfer to a new thread I personally have no objection.

For more woodland areas to be created there needs to be the ability to divert water or at best scenario is to create and area which holds water for a runoff to a new woodland area, so what you're doing is initally helping the woodlands grow and survive possible future droughts untill hopefully it's self perpetuating. i.e. holding it's own water and not losing the water to use or evaporation.

However in this day and age and forseeable future a new woodland will need some sort of man made help, because it won't cope with the current weather conditions (droughts, continuous winter/spring/summer doughts and climate change.

So if you plant a forest it's no use leaving the new forest/woodlands to itself, because if there's another bad drought, or year, after year a drought continues, then the new woodland will not cope and eventually die.

One other thing is, if I may say is this! In my garden verge we have a row of medium size to large trees. I tell you this, if I have two weeks or more worth of constant rain. and then after this period of constant rain I dig down 18 inches to 2 ft or more to the subsoil/earth, the earth around the roots and away from the roots will be "bone dry"

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It will run off into the drains or streams and then rivers and the sea much more quickly than soaking into the ground.

Good agricultural practice aims to manage soil and plants to optimise water-utilisation. Soil health a huge subject and I'm not just referring to the UK here. Soils vary in their capacity to "absorb" and retain water. Cultivation methods seek to promote efficient infiltration. What you don't want is a soil which compacts too easily, seals itself and promotes run-off. Nor do you want soil nutrients to be leached away through inadequate care.  This is why farmers will go for low or zero tillage options where the soil will take that. Biological strategies like cover crops to prevent bare soil surfaces help with this. Incorporation of organic/biological matter assists infiltration and promote water retention. Timing is important, to achieve establishment of a crop or sward to protect and conserve what's underneath. Managing drainage is an important aspect of this process - so farmers will, for example, work with the contours, not down a slope. They may use ridging if appropriate - terracing in some environments - to hold water where they can and remove it where they must. Or store it. The old saying was - "Don't drain a field from the bottom, as that water is already leaving the land."

Modern land management takes all these elements to a very scientific level, with extensive gathering of data to get water and soil management as efficient as possible. It's the economics of water in agriculture. If you can use measures in a low energy way, so much the better. One should not underestimate the value of livestock as an element in good soil management. Specialised agro-forestry, waste management, irrigation, pollution and flood management are other areas to consider in the overall management of water in agriculture. Bledur will be able to tell us about that - and the art of managing water-use to tie in with what the seasons give you.

Roger

 

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 Agreed.

As Darren highlights it continues to be a mild outlook. Good for everyone’s heating costs!

 

Mild & wet is exactly what we need this winter.

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 Which is argument for having more green and wooded areas in & around urban areas. Run off is a man-made thing. 

"Man made" You mean climate change?

I'd imagine more on a smaller scale: think of people paving over their front gardens, or newbuild estates which don't even have front gardens - and postage stamp back gardens; think of people ripping up a perfectly good lawn and replacing it with concrete and plastic ("fake grass"); think of people buying a bungalow with a relatively large garden and knocking it down, replacing it with three large houses, that sort of thing.

Thinking of my own road in the 80s, compared to now, there are far fewer front gardens, there's more artificial grass, and the number of buildings has more than doubled due to the bunglow-becoming-houses issue. Lawns, borders, shrubs and yes, trees, are great for absorbing and moderating rainfall. Sadly they're very much on the decline these days as gardens shrink and people's attitudes to gardening change. (I hated gardening as a kid, but these days I'm beginning to enjoy it!)

Incidentally, back to the models, ECM now has meteograms for the long range (i.e. weeks/months). I've posted a sample below, for London, but you can get them for anywhere really. They show a similar pattern to the GEFS: very mild for the rest of October, followed by a slight cool-down into November (but still milder than average). It remains to be seen how good a guide they are, but it's always nice to have extra charts to play with!

https://charts.ecmwf.int/products/opencharts_extended_meteogram?base_time=202210200000&lat=51.5084&lon=-0.125533&station_name=London

 

 

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No, that’s wrong. It runs from drains into rivers which all go to the sea.  The reason we get floods is that it can’t drain fast enough.  It makes it worse that the ground was baked and hard during the heat of the summer.  For rain to soak down, it needs to be steady and prolonged. 

And a surprising amount stays on leaves of trees and grass without ever getting to the ground. Typically, if trees are in full leaf as indeed they are at least in S England, you need upwards of 1cm rain before the ground gets any. I didn't believe this when I read it in a textbook, so I di an experiment with a Geography A level class, pouring water on a pile of vegetation and seeing how much was collected on a polythene sheet underneath - and, basically, the claim is true. Of course there will be other factors e.g. wind to shake raindrops off the leaves.

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Local aquifer at a level for this time of year only matched once or occasionally twice a decade, and still descending steeply.

https://www2.bgs.ac.uk/groundwater/datainfo/levels/sites/ChilgroveHouse.html

The last years that the position was clearly worse were 1995 and 1996

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And a surprising amount stays on leaves of trees and grass without ever getting to the ground. Typically, if trees are in full leaf as indeed they are at least in S England, you need upwards of 1cm rain before the ground gets any. I didn't believe this when I read it in a textbook, so I di an experiment with a Geography A level class, pouring water on a pile of vegetation and seeing how much was collected on a polythene sheet underneath - and, basically, the claim is true. Of course there will be other factors e.g. wind to shake raindrops off the leaves.

  And of course, wind will pick up moisture and dry the ground more quickly.  Sorry, off topic but I think people need to understand that a few days of heavy rain and floods does not mean the end of a water shortage.  

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It will be soaked when flooded as it will eventually seep underground.  Heavy rain inland does not run off to the sea but go underground, rivers and lakes, only on the coastal areas see rain water run off to the sea.  Soil is very wet and not dry since September.  Any dry spells now does not dry up until March the earliest.

 

Do not forget evaporation.  It is still very warm.  The pavements dry out in hours not because the rain runs off, but because it evaporates.

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"Man made" You mean climate change?

Btw Mods, As this is a little off topic, if it annoys you, and you want to begin/transfer to a new thread I personally have no objection.

For more woodland areas to be created there needs to be the ability to divert water or at best scenario is to create and area which holds water for a runoff to a new woodland area, so what you're doing is initally helping the woodlands grow and survive possible future droughts untill hopefully it's self perpetuating. i.e. holding it's own water and not losing the water to use or evaporation.

However in this day and age and forseeable future a new woodland will need some sort of man made help, because it won't cope with the current weather conditions (droughts, continuous winter/spring/summer doughts and climate change.

So if you plant a forest it's no use leaving the new forest/woodlands to itself, because if there's another bad drought, or year, after year a drought continues, then the new woodland will not cope and eventually die.

One other thing is, if I may say is this! In my garden verge we have a row of medium size to large trees. I tell you this, if I have two weeks or more worth of constant rain. and then after this period of constant rain I dig down 18 inches to 2 ft or more to the subsoil/earth, the earth around the roots and away from the roots will be "bone dry"

Sorry to continue off thread toipic, but we actually need to start planting woods from southern European species.  Note that the Holm oak (Quercus ilex)  is now generating as a native tree (in London anyway)  Drought tolerant.  If nature took its course without our input, we would see our woodland species shunted north and the new species taking over.  We live maybe  as much as a thousand miles or so futher south now.

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  And of course, wind will pick up moisture and dry the ground more quickly.  Sorry, off topic but I think people need to understand that a few days of heavy rain and floods does not mean the end of a water shortage.  

Please excuse off topic.

Take into account perculation and water pressure/weight on subsoil/rock etc.

If say you have flood water of around 18" depth in say a small area. It's just going to slowly run off into drains, streams and rivers there's not enough weight or pressure say push into subsoils

For example: If you take swimming pool, size say, (sorry to keep coming back to pools)

14ft X 28 ft x ave depth 4ft, that equates to nearly 10,000 imperial gallons with a weight of around 45 to 50 ton (This does not include pool constuction weight).

If that pool suffers a crack in the structure, the pool water (different for liner pools) will just run out to the level where the crack is situated and away. There would little to no ground saturatione, the water will have gone away into water courses etc, etc.

Water is quite heavy. It might not feel like it's heavy in a swimming pool but try holding a bucket of water at arm lenght.

That's why sometimes I hear on the grapevine that a swimming pool has had its "back broken" because a high water table (Due to continuous heavy rain) has lifted the pool out ground (like floating a boat) The water table then drops and the weight of the water in the pool cracks the pool open. Sorry. Just a bit of a diversion from the models 

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I know we've had a fair bit of rain, but I still think it's not enough . 

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