The Weather Outlook

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Retron
  • Retron
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09 December 2024 08:39:52
A different thread this year, taking elements of my old daily model analysis threads at this time of year.

This is a place for discussion and charts of Christmas Day, with the aim of watching as the models refine their forecasts for the big day. It'll be interesting to see just how far out we get the final picture! I will only be looking at the 0z output, to keep things consistent and manageable.

To kick things off, the GFS now goes out that far. The initial output from the 0z run has a cold cyclonic WNW'ly flow over the UK, low pressure over the North Sea and a secondary low poised to approach from the WSW. There's plenty of sleet and/or snow around in western areas as you'd expect.

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/96/21073/gfs_0_384yum5.png 

UserPostedImage

Ensemble wise, the 0z GFS offers the following mix:

Control - mild SW'lies with a secondary low to the NW

SW'lies - 9 (5 cyclonic, 4 anticyclonic)

Westerlies, generally with complex low to the north - 7

Trough moving over UK - 4

NW'lies, high to SW - 3

And the other scenarios have 1 each, including a ridge from a Scandinavian High and lows over the North Sea or UK.

The star run today is perturbation 5, which has a cold northerly feed setting in over the UK, with high pressure to the NW and a cold, complex low to the east.

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/22/12395/gens_5_1_384ehg1.png 

UserPostedImage


Leysdown, north Kent
ballamar
09 December 2024 09:11:44
Seems to be a small cluster indicating a cooldown around 20/21st on GEFS- might be picking up on something. See if it shows up in any subsequent runs.  
Brian Gaze
09 December 2024 09:24:52
Last year things started firming up around 18/12, although the details remained quite elusive IIRC until a couple of days out. Whilst it was clear that most of the UK wasn't going to be seeing snow that was "deep, crisp and even" the extent of a possible "technical white Christmas" was uncertain.

On TWO the GEFS stamps are here:

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/gefs.aspx?run=na&charthour=384&chartname=ps_2m_maxtemp&chartregion=uk&p=1&charttag=PS%202m%20max%20temp 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Retron
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  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
09 December 2024 09:27:08

Last year things started firming up around 18/12, although the details remained quite elusive IIRC until a couple of days out. Whilst it was clear that most of the UK wasn't going to be seeing snow that was "deep, crisp and even" the extent of a possible "technical white Christmas" was uncertain.

On TWO the GEFS stamps are here:

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

It's usually around a week out to be certain, going by the past 20 years, but if it's looking like a very zonal Christmas it can be several days beyond that! Those GEFS stamps are useful, and I'll link to them tomorrow onwards. The reason I use MC, btw, is because it has a handy archive feature, meaning that those reading the thread in a few days should still see the relevant charts.


Leysdown, north Kent
Brian Gaze
09 December 2024 09:31:40

It's usually around a week out to be certain, going by the past 20 years, but if it's looking like a very zonal Christmas it can be several days beyond that! Those GEFS stamps are useful, and I'll link to them tomorrow onwards. The reason I use MC, btw, is because it has a handy archive feature, meaning that those reading the thread in a few days should still see the relevant charts.

Originally Posted by: Retron 

👍Christmas Day always provides a good focal point to see how the model output firms up as the lead time shortens. 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Jiries
09 December 2024 10:22:32
Intersting to read and hope something nice out of it for Xmas day, a wind of Cold NW or NE that bring either Cheshire gap or Wash snow snowers here will do nicely.   Ensembles now just showing 25th Dec, see the green line going down to -5c with some slight support.
howham
09 December 2024 10:30:41

Seems to be a small cluster indicating a cooldown around 20/21st on GEFS- might be picking up on something. See if it shows up in any subsequent runs.  

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

We had snowfall last Christmas Day in the evening that settled.  First White Christmas for us since 2010.

Retron
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10 December 2024 06:35:14
This morning's GFS has a typical winter pattern - high pressure over Biscay, generally mild WSW'lies over the UK, with more of the same on the way.

UserPostedImage

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/53/12994/gfs_0_360bhx5.png 

The GEFS control has a large high just east of the Azores, with a weak ridge and westerlies over the UK.

The other members cluster around a SW'ly flow, with westerlies and NW'lies from a ridge or high to the west being the next most-likely option.

Anticyclonic SW'lies: 6

Cyclonic SW'lies: 4

Ridge/high to west, NW'lies: 4

Ridge/high to west, westerlies: 4

High to east, southerlies: 3

Complex low to east, cold NW'lies: 2

Other options include a misaligned Scandinavian High, with southerlies, an Icelandic High with cold NNW'lies and widespread snow, or a high centred over the UK.

UserPostedImage

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/74/3523/gens_16_1_360xao3.png 

Today's standout is perturbation 16, with heavy sleet or snow moving south across much of the UK on Christmas Day. Several other members show sleet or snow in lesser amounts.


Leysdown, north Kent
CField
10 December 2024 07:03:41
Looking like the Mightty Heights to the South are going to bring some pleasant conditions to the South for the Xmas holidays...can't rule out a 100mph special to the North West corner though....all copy paste stuff from previous years...
Favourite snowstorm

Famous channel low

Dec 31st 1978

Hastings East Sussex

Foot of level snow severe drifting

Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius

Retron
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10 December 2024 10:22:21
Today's the first day of the ECM going out to Christmas Day - not that it's anything special, showing a large high just to the SW with mild westerlies bathing the UK. The AI version instead has a deep low over northern Scotland, with strong to gale force westerlies and WSW'lies over the UK.
Leysdown, north Kent
wallaw
10 December 2024 11:48:59
Long way off yet and plenty of time to change but I would personally take pretty much anything other than zonal westerlies and strong wind for the holiday period. Which would appear to be a slightly 'form horse' this far out
Ian

Stockton-on-Tees

overland
10 December 2024 15:51:40

This morning's GFS has a typical winter pattern - high pressure over Biscay, generally mild WSW'lies over the UK, with more of the same on the way.

Today's standout is perturbation 16, with heavy sleet or snow moving south across much of the UK on Christmas Day. Several other members show sleet or snow in lesser amounts.

Originally Posted by: Retron 

It's great to see these snowy, festive, permutations as, despite the vanishingly small chance of them coming off, the fact that they are there shows that all is not yet lost. Imagine a Christmas Day with the sky clouding over and flakes starting to fall as you sit down for Christmas lunch!


Mumbles, Swansea. 80m asl
ballamar
10 December 2024 16:58:16
This op run couldn’t look much more depressing for Xmas cold! Time for change
Zubzero
10 December 2024 17:55:15
It don't take a psychic to know what the weather will be like over the Christmas period. I've give up looking at the models most days now, as its the same old every winter now. 

I was lucky to be a child in the 80s, lowland snow is getting rarer every year. Even a snow shower is getting a once in a five year event. 

Back on topic this mornings temperatures from the GEFS says it all

https://www.meteociel.fr/cartes_obs/gens_display.php?x=312&y=107&run=6&runpara=0&type=3&ext=1  

Russwirral
10 December 2024 19:44:36
doctormog
10 December 2024 19:51:42
It (ECM 12z) has a technical White Christmas here with a mix of rain and snow falling on Christmas Day. The GFS 12z op run has snow falling in parts of NW Scotland.
ballamar
10 December 2024 21:32:54
Need GFS to start shifting to ECM for Xmas ideally in a decent pub run, not long to find out! ECM is a cracker

Gandalf The White
10 December 2024 22:18:53
I see that the ECM op run whilst at the bottom end of the ensemble suite, wasn’t without support.  The mean max 2m temperature for Xmas Eve is 5c for London.
Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Snowedin3
11 December 2024 07:01:37
Gfs shows a more ECM 12z like set up for Xmas, however there are some very cold members showing up in the ensemble suite now. One to keep an eye on!
Dean Barnes

Finstock, Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire

160m ASL 525 Ft

Retron
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11 December 2024 08:14:50
This morning's ECM isn't quite out yet, but in the meantime here's the GFS rundown:

The Azores High is displaced northwards on this morning's GFS, lying to the west of the UK. A trough has recently moved southwards over the UK, introducing relatively cold cyclonic northerlies. There's widespread sleet and snow over higher ground in the north and west, with rain over eastern coastal areas.

UserPostedImage

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/89/6664/gfs_0_336mrn9.png 

The GEFS control has the Azores High ridging over Iberia and a trough crossing the UK. Winds are southerlies in advance and WSW'ly following behind. There's a weak high to the NE of Iceland and trough disruption is ongoing to the NW of the UK.

The ensemble members show the following scenarios:

Anticyclonic SW'lies: 6

Ridge to west with westerlies or NW'lies (not cold): 4

High over British Isles: 4

Trough crossing UK, SW'lies in advance: 3

Ridge from high to east over UK: 3

Cyclonic SW'lies: 2

Complex low over Scandinavia, cold WNW'lies or NW'lies: 2

High over or to immediate west of Biscay, westerlies: 2

The other scenarios include a high to the NE with easterlies over the UK and an Icelandic High with cold NE'lies.

The pattern has changed subtly from yesterday, with a shift away from a straightforward SW'ly pattern - ridging nearby has moved up the charts instead. Cold weather remains unlikely.

The standout today is perturbation 13, which shows that Icelandic High - there is relatively widespread sleet and snow, and milder air only makes slow progress eastwards over the following couple of days.

UserPostedImage

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/65/9762/gens_13_1_336wpy2.png 


Leysdown, north Kent
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
11 December 2024 08:34:42
Interesting model watching; a lot of variation on the day itself, and the leading models e.g. GFS Op changing from day to day in the run-up.
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

Brian Gaze
11 December 2024 08:55:55
The AIFS is probably the favoured model this morning. 😂

UserPostedImage


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Retron
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11 December 2024 09:36:11

The AIFS is probably the favoured model this morning. 😂

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

One of those charts which promises much, but delivers mainly rain - still looks good though! And the op isn't unpleasant either, with the Azores High close by and a west or NW'ly flow over the UK... it'd deliver a frost down here at least.


Leysdown, north Kent
Russwirral
11 December 2024 12:05:19
Definitely some options about in the charts... though nothings superbeast from the east type scenario

A fairly good chance that some places (and not just exclusively hilly and northern areas) might see some seasonal / wintry weather in the Christmas week.

Alot of flux in the output, no detail consistency to put any more meat on the bones with though


Ally Pally Snowman
11 December 2024 12:49:48
Ensembles still look poor for the South though. Models normally start to pick up pattern changes in the 8 to 12 day range, nothing yet.

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?geoid=50893&model=gfs&var=2&run=6&lid=ENS&bw=1 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.

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