Hippydave
18 January 2021 09:30:20

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


Theres no confusion the outlook is fairly mild in the south apart from a brief chilly spell. Here's London forecasts temps.


8c, 12c, 11c, 10c , 8c, 7c, 7c,10c, 11c, 11c, 11c, 10c,10c, 10c,



Forecast using what model as that's not what the GFS run you were talking about shows, which is as below. If you're going to comment about it being mild whilst referencing a particular model run, by all means clarify that you're in fact using other information to come to that conclusion otherwise it's just misleading. For London that shows a few mild days then generally below average for the next 9-10 days. 


Now if you mean fairly mild to be not cold and snowing then yes, it's fairly mild. If you're talking about versus the weather you'd expect for the time of year based on the long term averages then no it's not a mild picture for the next 9-10 days as per the GFS and broadly other model output. 


 


Chart image


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Brian Gaze
18 January 2021 09:33:31

Despite a lot of talk about SSWs and model confusion the reality is the NWP has been performing pretty well recently. Beyond about 7 days there is ALAWAYS uncertainty. I remain of the view that a lot of nonsense is spouted about SSWs in general. That's NOT to say they aren't an important player and should be ignored. However, looking at the 500hPa level remains the best way of forecasting short to medium term in the UK. Anything beyond that involves rolling a dice or looking at longer term forcing and recent climatology. 


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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doctormog
18 January 2021 09:40:25

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


 


Are you only permitted to travel 3 miles?


😂😎



Yes, about that, maybe 5 at most. 


Ally Pally Snowman
18 January 2021 09:59:53

Originally Posted by: Hippydave 


 


Forecast using what model as that's not what the GFS run you were talking about shows, which is as below. If you're going to comment about it being mild whilst referencing a particular model run, by all means clarify that you're in fact using other information to come to that conclusion otherwise it's just misleading. For London that shows a few mild days then generally below average for the next 9-10 days. 


Now if you mean fairly mild to be not cold and snowing then yes, it's fairly mild. If you're talking about versus the weather you'd expect for the time of year based on the long term averages then no it's not a mild picture for the next 9-10 days as per the GFS and broadly other model output. 


 


Chart image



 


I wasn't talking about the gfs. I was talking about ECM.  The temps I quoted are from the bbc Meteogroup normally fairly accurate certainly better than the GFS which is normally 2 or 3c below actual. 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
backtobasics
18 January 2021 10:02:31

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Despite a lot of talk about SSWs and model confusion the reality is the NWP has been performing pretty well recently. Beyond about 7 days there is ALAWAYS uncertainty. I remain of the view that a lot of nonsense is spouted about SSWs in general. That's NOT to say they aren't an important player and should be ignored. However, looking at the 500hPa level remains the best way of forecasting short to medium term in the UK. Anything beyond that involves rolling a dice or looking at longer term forcing and recent climatology. 



Could not agree more Brian !!

Brian Gaze
18 January 2021 10:14:36

I've been looking for the MetO press release about their HITOP (High top?) model and how it would improve forecasts. It was published several years ago. Can anyone locate it please?


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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doctormog
18 January 2021 10:32:39

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


I've been looking for the MetO press release about their HITOP (High top?) model and how it would improve forecasts. It was published several years ago. Can anyone locate it please?



Was it this Brian? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19584302 


Ally Pally Snowman
18 January 2021 10:34:16

GFS 6z has 13c on 26th and 14c widely on the 27th. Remember you can normally add 2 or 3c to these. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
fairweather
18 January 2021 10:36:47

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


 


 


I wasn't talking about the gfs. I was talking about ECM.  The temps I quoted are from the bbc Meteogroup normally fairly accurate certainly better than the GFS which is normally 2 or 3c below actual. 


 



I tend to agree with your comments in the context of what most people are looking for in this thread i.e cold enough for snow. There is a short spell of below average temperatures with little chance of snow and not much in the way of frosts. Then till the end of the runs it trends milder , become average or above average (which these days seems to be quoted as the heady 8C !) but with a degree of uncertainty although a fairly high certainty (as much as there ever is at that range!) of it not being particularly cold. 


S.Essex, 42m ASL
doctormog
18 January 2021 10:36:56

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


GFS 6z has 13c on 26th and 14c widely on the 27th. Remember you can normally add 2 or 3c to these. 



And you can normally discount it or at least treat with a massive pinch of salt when it is so synoptically different to the previous run and 8 days away.


Hippydave
18 January 2021 10:37:52

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


 


 


I wasn't talking about the gfs. I was talking about ECM.  The temps I quoted are from the bbc Meteogroup normally fairly accurate certainly better than the GFS which is normally 2 or 3c below actual. 


 



Apologies just checked your original mild post and you you didn't specifically reference the GFS or any of the models, just stated it was looking mild.


The general point still stands though IMO but we'll have to agree to disagree


I linked this the other day but this site is quite good if you want to play around with the ECM data ECMWF 14-day ensemble weather forecast for Tunbridge Wells District | Meteologix.com You can get an idea of where the Op sits in the ens, along with upper and lower scatter etc. and as with the more widely available GFS ens data can check the T2M temps in similar format to the GFS charts. 


The 2-3c underestimate of temps is sometimes true but FWIW the last cold spell was generally the other way round IMBY - lots of forecasts of 5-6c and ground temps of 0-3c instead. Given the generally chilly nature of the last few weeks I'd have said less moderation would occur than normal and there's less likelihood of the temps being under estimated than normal but that's purely a guess on my part.


Home: Tunbridge Wells
Work: Tonbridge
Ally Pally Snowman
18 January 2021 10:48:21

Originally Posted by: Hippydave 


 


Apologies just checked your original mild post and you you didn't specifically reference the GFS or any of the models, just stated it was looking mild.


The general point still stands though IMO but we'll have to agree to disagree


I linked this the other day but this site is quite good if you want to play around with the ECM data ECMWF 14-day ensemble weather forecast for Tunbridge Wells District | Meteologix.com You can get an idea of where the Op sits in the ens, along with upper and lower scatter etc. and as with the more widely available GFS ens data can check the T2M temps in similar format to the GFS charts. 


The 2-3c underestimate of temps is sometimes true but FWIW the last cold spell was generally the other way round IMBY - lots of forecasts of 5-6c and ground temps of 0-3c instead. Given the generally chilly nature of the last few weeks I'd have said less moderation would occur than normal and there's less likelihood of the temps being under estimated than normal but that's purely a guess on my part.



No worries,  I dont want a row it is only the weather after all. 


Yes I'd agree the 2 or 3c under estimate which the ECM also has only really occurs when the weather is mild or warm. Not such a problem with cold spells.


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Brian Gaze
18 January 2021 10:51:40

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 


Was it this Brian? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19584302 



Perfect.  It's a good piece actually and I'd recommend people to read it.


Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
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Rob K
18 January 2021 10:52:55

Originally Posted by: doctormog 


 


Yes, about that, maybe 5 at most. 



OT but as I understand the rules in Scotland, you are allowed to start and finish your daily exercise up to 5 miles outside the boundary of your local council area (and there is no limit on how far you can go from that start point). It would still be a bit of a stretch to reach the mountains from 5 miles outside Aberdeen city limits...


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
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tallyho_83
18 January 2021 11:02:58

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


GFS 6z has 13c on 26th and 14c widely on the 27th. Remember you can normally add 2 or 3c to these. 



I really doubt it! So temps of 15- 16c? - or maybe this is the met off 's new "wintry hazards" they were on about  They didn't mention any return to prolonged mild weather or state anywhere that it will become very mild or warm.


Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
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www.magical-moon.com


Ally Pally Snowman
18 January 2021 11:08:48

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


 


I really doubt it! So temps of 15- 16c? - or maybe this is the met off 's new "wintry hazards" they were on about  They didn't mention any return to prolonged mild weather or state anywhere that it will become very mild or warm.



 


Its definitely possible,  there's going to be a big warm up in Spain and southern France and it could waft our way around the 26th/27th.


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
tallyho_83
18 January 2021 11:10:34

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


GFS 6z has 13c on 26th and 14c widely on the 27th. Remember you can normally add 2 or 3c to these. 



Hope this is a mild outlier?



Home Location - Kellands Lane, Okehampton, Devon (200m ASL)
---------------------------------------
Sean Moon
Magical Moon
www.magical-moon.com


Rob K
18 January 2021 11:11:26
The GFS op run shows the PV going pretty much back to normality by the end of the month with no sign of the northern blocking we have seen.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl
"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome
Ally Pally Snowman
18 January 2021 11:14:19

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


 


Hope this is a mild outlier?




I hope it does Tally, if it isn't going to snow then I want it as mild as possible. 


 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
moomin75
18 January 2021 11:50:22

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


 


I hope it does Tally, if it isn't going to snow then I want it as mild as possible. 


 


I've long been thinking we are more likely to see exceptional mildness and I have seen no reason to change my thoughts. I've stuck to my guns for well over a week and I am sticking by my thoughts.


That said, sometimes, exceptional mildness is a forerunner to something significantly colder, and even if this does materialise I don't think that spells curtains for winter, although I believe the cold will come in early March if at all.


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