Stu N
03 February 2011 23:33:45

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


As for your opening point, then yes clearly the sun is the major climate driver.  But this plays back to the previous point - the sun is a constant plus or minus 0.5%.  What has adding, so far, 110 parts per million, or 40%, to CO2 levels done to the balance in the system.  The issue is how this is manifesting itself and how that effect is measurable above the noise of the underlying climate variability. 



Yep the +- 0.5% solar would completely dwarf a +-0.5% change in CO2, but as Gandalf notes CO2 is 40% higher now than pre-industrial revolution.


I would think that the thing about natural cycles is that, with the exception of Milankovic cycles and things of that timescale, they oscillate on timescales long enough to affect "climate" trends (as Tom noted) but not long enough to actually change the direction of climate change, which was a fairly steady cooling over the last 6000 years (bar some up and down bumps eg MWP/LIA). I put climate in quote marks because our arbitrary definition of 30 years is short enough that the trend over that period could be affected by whatever natural cycles are doing.


I think the problem is that addition greenhouse forcing, caused by humans, is for life and beyond and not just for Christmas. If natural cycles conspire to cool the next 20 years, what happens when they conspire to warm the 20 after that, plus all the additional greenhouse warming?


 

Stephen Wilde
04 February 2011 07:16:57
"If natural cycles conspire to cool the next 20 years, what happens when they conspire to warm the 20 after that, plus all the additional greenhouse warming?"

Well then we are back to proportionality and timing.

If any AGW effect is only a very small proportion of natural variability then for at least 200 years all we will see is a very slight elevation of temperature throughout the natural cycle and since cold is worse for us than warmth the net outcome will be beneficial.

Then there is the issue as to what the practical effect of a slightly warmer world really is. If the only effect is to shift the jets a bit then absolute global temperature isn't of much significance anyway.

As we can see now, climate changes in specific regions arise primarily from changes in the air circulation above rather than from a change in absolute global temperature. The effect of the former is far far greater than the effect of the latter.

Since the natural air circulation changes are so big anyway any human effect is pretty insignificant and a tiny incremental change is unlikely to activate any tipping points when one bears in mind that the natural air circulation adjustments are so much greater anyway. Such adjustments are always negative to any forcing trend whether towards warming or cooling which is why the system is stable enough for the Earth to have retained liquid oceans for billions of years.

The UN estimates for global population stability (and then decline) have been brought forward to the mid 21st century because prosperous peoples always reproduce at slower than replacement rate so soon enough the population issue will go away of it's own accord. A managed decline in global population over the next 500 years is the most likely scenario.

That then just leaves resource and pollution pressure but technology and a free world can deal with that better than centrally directed authoritarianism would with its energy rationing via an artifically inflated global pricing mechanism.

If one looks back 200 years the technological changes have been incredible and the pace of it keeps quickening.

If we have more trhan 200 years without a significant human induced climate effect then the whole AGW scare is an irrelevant and dangerous distraction which could actually delay our progress towards a long term sustainable relationship with the world.

Just compare Soviet style tower blocks to the leafy suburbs around London to see what authoritarian solutions lead to.

And compare the potentially permanently damaged industrial regions of China to the reclaimed coal spoil heaps of South Wales or the English Potteries where the first industrialisation occurred.

We really do not need the panicky behaviour of environmentalism with its lack of belief in humanity's ability to progress in a positive direction.

History has already proved them wrong in their pessimism time and time again.

Free and prosperous peoples always do the right thing eventually. We and the planet are as one. We are part of Gaia. We can only be free and prosperous with cheap energy however derived.

Let Earth's people be free subject only to a minimal level of top down regulation to prevent a limited range of short term abuses of the environment.






Gray-Wolf
04 February 2011 08:50:40

AGW's impacts may 'appear small' thus far but if you spotted a crack in a dam you wouldn't discount it would you? The inertia in the climate system is another 'unknown' (just like the feedbacks?) but we know to expect it. Once the 'inertia' is overcome then change (IMHO) will be rapid.


Are we not seeing such 'extremes' over the past 7 years? In the area we are told to look for the greatest 'extremes' (the Arctic) do we not see those extremes even greater?


Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
Gandalf The White
04 February 2011 10:44:14

Stephen, rather than re-typing chunks of your post I will respond in bold against each as necessary:


 


Originally Posted by: Stephen Wilde 

"If natural cycles conspire to cool the next 20 years, what happens when they conspire to warm the 20 after that, plus all the additional greenhouse warming?"

Well then we are back to proportionality and timing.


No, we are still at risk assessment and mitigation.

If any AGW effect is only a very small proportion of natural variability then for at least 200 years all we will see is a very slight elevation of temperature throughout the natural cycle and since cold is worse for us than warmth the net outcome will be beneficial.


You have absolutely no basis for this statement.  Firstly it reveals your underlying denial of any real threat, contrary to predictions.  Secondly, you are once aagin displaying a annthropomorphic view of AGW.  We depend on the health of the entire biosphere for our survival and your casual disregard for the other species on the planet is myopic in the extreme.

Then there is the issue as to what the practical effect of a slightly warmer world really is. If the only effect is to shift the jets a bit then absolute global temperature isn't of much significance anyway.


Again, you don't have any solid proof for this supposition and indeed your comments are contradicted by the data. Many places are warming that lie inside the belt where the jets move - even you just have to be aware of this.



As we can see now, climate changes in specific regions arise primarily from changes in the air circulation above rather than from a change in absolute global temperature. The effect of the former is far far greater than the effect of the latter.


See above - simply not the case.

Since the natural air circulation changes are so big anyway any human effect is pretty insignificant and a tiny incremental change is unlikely to activate any tipping points when one bears in mind that the natural air circulation adjustments are so much greater anyway. Such adjustments are always negative to any forcing trend whether towards warming or cooling which is why the system is stable enough for the Earth to have retained liquid oceans for billions of years.


This statement presumes that your previous assumptions are correct, which they are not and therefore this statement is simply unsupported and wrong.

The UN estimates for global population stability (and then decline) have been brought forward to the mid 21st century because prosperous peoples always reproduce at slower than replacement rate so soon enough the population issue will go away of it's own accord. A managed decline in global population over the next 500 years is the most likely scenario.


Another of your favourite hobby horses.  You ignore the fact that the current global population is already putting unmanageable strains on the ecosystem - examples below.

That then just leaves resource and pollution pressure but technology and a free world can deal with that better than centrally directed authoritarianism would with its energy rationing via an artifically inflated global pricing mechanism.


OK good, that only leaves resource and pollution pressure.... The threats are almost endless but includes over-fishing, over-grazing, failure of irrigation systems and damage to soil from salt deposits, rapidly falling water tables.

If one looks back 200 years the technological changes have been incredible and the pace of it keeps quickening.

If we have more trhan 200 years without a significant human induced climate effect then the whole AGW scare is an irrelevant and dangerous distraction which could actually delay our progress towards a long term sustainable relationship with the world.


The first word is relevant...... 'IF'.  The rest is irrelevant because you have no evidence to back up your assumption. Again your choice of the word 'scare' is hihgly revealing about your true motivations for your stance.



Just compare Soviet style tower blocks to the leafy suburbs around London to see what authoritarian solutions lead to.


Another of your favourite red-herrings.  You assume that any co-ordinated efforts to change our  energy-intensive and unsustainable lifestyles necessarily involves 'authoritarian solution'.  This is just complete nonsense and you should know it. 

And compare the potentially permanently damaged industrial regions of China to the reclaimed coal spoil heaps of South Wales or the English Potteries where the first industrialisation occurred.


And of course the early stages of the industrial revolution in the West were a textbook example of clean and pollution free development.... You will find, I think, that the cleaning up of our environment was driven by the very regulation which you seem to detest.

We really do not need the panicky behaviour of environmentalism with its lack of belief in humanity's ability to progress in a positive direction.


Another Stephen soundbite that says everything, once again, about your true motivations here.

History has already proved them wrong in their pessimism time and time again.


It is fatal error to assume that you can extrapolate from the status quo indefinitely.

Free and prosperous peoples always do the right thing eventually. We and the planet are as one. We are part of Gaia. We can only be free and prosperous with cheap energy however derived.


Let me know when you find the magic pixie dust that will deliver us all cheap and plentiful energy. Better still try living in the real world and looking at the remaining finite reserves

Let Earth's people be free subject only to a minimal level of top down regulation to prevent a limited range of short term abuses of the environment.


A neat finish that encapsulates your mindset.  Nothing to do with the science and threats of climate change and everything to do with your position on political and economic systems. As for preventing abuses of the environment, you are joking I hope or are you completely out of touch Stephen?






Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gray-Wolf
17 February 2011 09:53:23

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110216132100.htm


Another 'oh dear' moment? Seems we're goosed if we stop emmisions right now (even without the imputs from the permafrost) but when we add in what nature has in store for us....well....


Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
John S2
17 February 2011 13:25:58

Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110216132100.htm


Another 'oh dear' moment? Seems we're goosed if we stop emmisions right now (even without the imputs from the permafrost) but when we add in what nature has in store for us....well....



It appears that a certain amount of warming is now 'locked in', but that should not be used as an excuse for inaction. By taking collective and immediate action (unlikely to happen) we could still reduce the magnitude of the warming.

Gandalf The White
17 February 2011 15:29:18

Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/02/110216132100.htm


Another 'oh dear' moment? Seems we're goosed if we stop emmisions right now (even without the imputs from the permafrost) but when we add in what nature has in store for us....well....



I recall having my comments rubbished by the usual suspects when I suggested that there were risks that the outlook could be worse than the IPCC predictions because positive feedbacks were as likely as negative ones.


This is the second time this week I have seen reference to the effects of melting permafrost and similar risks. I had always thought that the deposits locked up at the bottom of the oceans were safe until temperatures had risen significantly but I hadn't considered shallow oceans where quite modest warming may penetrate to the ocean floor.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gray-Wolf
17 February 2011 16:10:26

I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
AIMSIR
17 February 2011 16:16:42

Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


I wonder is there any way we could capture and use this methane from source?.

Gandalf The White
17 February 2011 19:03:16

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


I wonder is there any way we could capture and use this methane from source?.



As it is bubbling to the surface over a wide area I'm not sure how, but it would certainly be preferable to leaving it to escape into the air.


As I understand it methane, although around 20-25 times more potent than CO2,  turns into CO2 (plus water) in the atmosphere over time.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


AIMSIR
17 February 2011 19:50:02

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


I wonder is there any way we could capture and use this methane from source?.



As it is bubbling to the surface over a wide area I'm not sure how, but it would certainly be preferable to leaving it to escape into the air.


As I understand it methane, although around 20-25 times more potent than CO2,  turns into CO2 (plus water) in the atmosphere over time.


 


Just a thought ,to counteract views on certain doom.


 

Gandalf The White
17 February 2011 20:28:28

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Just a thought ,to counteract certain views on certain doom.


 



I know but just look where we are heading. 


Titanic


Deckchairs


 



Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Essan
17 February 2011 20:50:41

And the band played on


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J6RvaesGCM



Andy
Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl
Weather & Earth Science News 

Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job - DNA
AIMSIR
17 February 2011 20:58:15

It seems we are there already.
We're doomed captain.


Doomed.


(Saxon brings back memories.)

AIMSIR
17 February 2011 22:06:03

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Just a thought ,to counteract certain views on certain doom.


 



I know but just look where we are heading. 


Titanic


Deckchairs


 



Do you really think that's where we are heading Gandalf?.


I do not believe this is your nature.


Things are improving and will continue to do so,out of neccessity.

Stu N
17 February 2011 22:18:02

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


I wonder is there any way we could capture and use this methane from source?.



We can mine methane clathrates but certainly this would only be done in areas where it is economically viable. Mining and burning the methane as a fossil fuel would be preferable to letting it escape into the atmosphere as methane is the more potent GHG, as noted in this thread. This is one reason that gas is burnt off when it comes up with oil on rigs. Of course the folly of that plan is that the gas is pretty useful, but it was actually cheaper for the oil companies to burn it than to process and transport it for sale! Hopefully that is changing as gas becomes a more valuable commodity.


However I think it might be best to leave the clathrates where they are and implement other measures to try and keep global warming to a minimum.


BTW I seem to recall the timescale for methane breakdown into CO2 + water is something like 7-10 years.

AIMSIR
17 February 2011 22:28:09

Originally Posted by: Stu N 


Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf 


I've had 'ding dong's' with folk purporting to be actively researching the clathrates and their 'release'. The deep deposits have both temp and pressure in their favour and so you'd need a mechanical reason to destabilise them (landslides down the continental shelf promoted by earthquakes/tsunamis).


When I mention the ones in the shallow shelf sea off Siberia it generally falls a little silent and the conversation is dragged back to the continental shelf (generally at the edge of delta's like the Nile or Amazon) and the shallow shelf sea permafrosts/clathrites are ignored .


 To me this means the rush to study the losses now occuring along the Siberian coast are 'off the table' for folk seeking to reassure folk that our methane hydrates are beyond the reach of global warming...


I wonder is there any way we could capture and use this methane from source?.



We can mine methane clathrates but certainly this would only be done in areas where it is economically viable. Mining and burning the methane as a fossil fuel would be preferable to letting it escape into the atmosphere as methane is the more potent GHG, as noted in this thread. This is one reason that gas is burnt off when it comes up with oil on rigs. Of course the folly of that plan is that the gas is pretty useful, but it was actually cheaper for the oil companies to burn it than to process and transport it for sale! Hopefully that is changing as gas becomes a more valuable commodity.


However I think it might be best to leave the clathrates where they are and implement other measures to try and keep global warming to a minimum.


BTW I seem to recall the timescale for methane breakdown into CO2 + water is something like 7-10 years.


Thanks Stu.


Something to look at.

Gandalf The White
17 February 2011 23:53:47

Originally Posted by: Stu N 


 


BTW I seem to recall the timescale for methane breakdown into CO2 + water is something like 7-10 years.



Stu, I read somewhere that Methane has a half-life of 7 years, so 50% after 7 years, 75% after 14 years etc.


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


Gandalf The White
18 February 2011 00:02:44

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Do you really think that's where we are heading Gandalf?.


I do not believe this is your nature.


Things are improving and will continue to do so,out of neccessity.



Sorry, AIMSIR, I am indeed inclined to that view.


We are doing nothing absolutely nothing meaningful to reduce GHG emissions.  To do so requires dramatic changes to the way we live and consume on this planet.  The problem we have created so far has been created by a relatively small proportion of the global population.  With time more of that population is becoming wealthier and producing more GHGs.  With each passing year we are adding more heads to the population, further exacerbating the problem.


Things will only improve in response to a major crisis, whatever form that takes.  My bet on the likely candidate is, as stated elsewhere declining crop yields caused by more variable and extreme weather and declining water supplies in key areas. 


I expect to see new record global temperatures being set this decade and increasingly hard evidence that the climate is being destabilised. 


The $64,000 question is how much bad news there has to be before everyone accepts that it is happening and accepts the increasingly urgent and significant measures needed. Which leads to your final sentence - yes, things will improve out of necessity.  But it might be analogous to trying to bale water out of a sinking boat with a teaspoon....


 


Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E


AIMSIR
18 February 2011 01:19:09

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 


Originally Posted by: AIMSIR 


Do you really think that's where we are heading Gandalf?.


I do not believe this is your nature.


Things are improving and will continue to do so,out of neccessity.



Sorry, AIMSIR, I am indeed inclined to that view.


We are doing nothing absolutely nothing meaningful to reduce GHG emissions. 


 


I think that is defeatist, Gandalf and I have to say, surprising from you?


(Chin up and straighten those shoulders old chap)


There are great strides being made into alternatives these days.agw or not.


Necessity is the mother of invention.

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