The Weather Outlook

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Charmhills
08 September 2013 15:55:13

I'm 60 but like a big kid I still run around the room and jump up and down when snow has fallen 

Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 

Yeah, I know what you mean and I'm only 37.


Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power.

Duane.

Gooner
09 September 2013 18:43:51

Great to see this thread return! There's been so much interest in our winter predictions since 09 and 10. Here's hoping for something special again although personally I think we are due a non event like the winters of the early 2000s. I hope I'm wrong .
Scott
Penicuik 188 asl

Originally Posted by: Medlock Vale Weather 

 

Winter 2011/12 was a non-event. A totally mind numblingly boring mild winter.

Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 

I agree apart from a dusting one morning in mid December and about 3-4 inches one evening in February with a week of cold it was a boring Winter, quite disappointing compared to the previous ones. I'm glad last Winter was better.

Originally Posted by: Tree & Snowman 

I've been quite lucky here, the last 4 winters have seen a decent fall at some point forcing work to close / stay shut


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus

Banbury

North Oxfordshire

378 feet A S L



Tractor Boy
09 September 2013 19:28:38

I predict that the length of this winter thread will overtake the autumn thread before September 15th.


Dave

Farndale, North York Moors

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
09 September 2013 20:15:53

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/CFSv2/CFSv2seasonal.shtml

The latesdt update,Sept 9th, from NOAA of CFSv2 shows increasing cold anomalies over Scandinavia for the months of Dec,Jan,Feb.

Andy Woodcock
09 September 2013 21:00:58

To be honest a very mild winter is overdue and thats where my money is, nothing scientific to back this up but when you consider 4 out of the last 5 has been cold something has to give.

Here in East Cumbria nothing could be as frustrating as last winter so the thought of a 3 month Bartlett doesnt worry me, yes a 2010 or 2011 winter would be nice but this is the UK and I think we have used up our quota of cold winters for a while.

 

Andy


Andy Woodcock

Penrith

Cumbria

Altitude 535 feet

"Why are the British so worried about climate change? Any change to their climate can only be an improvement" John Daley 2001

Saint Snow
09 September 2013 21:07:42

I predict that the length of this winter thread will overtake the autumn thread before September 15th.

Originally Posted by: Tractor Boy 

 

That's hardly going out on a limb, matey 

 

 


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

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Aneurin Bevan

White Meadows
09 September 2013 21:25:22
For all you pattern matchers out there, this year has been very much like '95... And remember that December?

Flipping cold I tell you!

Stormchaser
09 September 2013 22:03:29

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/CFSv2/CFSv2seasonal.shtml

The latesdt update,Sept 9th, from NOAA of CFSv2 shows increasing cold anomalies over Scandinavia for the months of Dec,Jan,Feb.

Originally Posted by: roger63 

Looking at the 700mb anomaly charts, I can see a mixed October acting as a transition month after which mid-lat blocking starts to build to higher latitudes in November. By December we have proper high-latitude blocking but not without interruptions. Seeing the largest area of +ve anomalies near to Svalbard and extending towards Siberia is promising for some long-fetch continental cold.

The blocking becomes very dominant in January - CFS has been showing a similar idea for some time now, and it does resemble what it got up to prior to March 2013....!

In February the blocking starts to wane but the anomalies still look loaded with potential considering the over-energetic nature of the CFS model, which tends to generate strong storms that force their way to higher latitudes that it is realistic to anticipate.


In fact, if you take the fact that CFS hasn't wavered much on the broad theme of the winter months over the past few weeks, and then adjust the -ve anomalies in the charts southward a bit to account for that poleward bias... well, then you're looking at a potentially very cold winter being suggested.

It's just one model though, and there are numerous others out there - which Gavin P reviews in his excellent seasonal outlook videos.

Firstly, there's the Met Office's ensemble model, which I have some respect for, and has offered support on previous updates - so my eyes are on that one when the new charts come through.

Next is JAMSTEC/JAM. Not sure I really take much stock in that one as it's a bit hit and miss, but it would be nice to get that one in support.

Then there's the BCC - now that model is a bit of a joke IMO, as it's been way wide of the mark for the last few seasons.

There's a couple of others but I can't recall them off the top of my head and even if I could I don't think I'd have much of a clue regarding their pros and cons.


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roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
10 September 2013 08:09:32

For all you pattern matchers out there, this year has been very much like '95... And remember that December?
Flipping cold I tell you!

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 

In terms of patterms both Summer 95 and summer 21023 were VERY WARM,VERY DRY.Such summers have a weak link to winter with 45% followed by warm winters,55% cold.

The Spring type in 1995 was COLD,VERY DRY with following winters 55% warm, 45% cold -not astrong indicator.In 2-13 Spring wa sVERY COLD ,DRYwhich is a strong  cold winter indicator,85% of fololwing winter being below average

Moving finally to Autumn 1995 was VERY WARM DRY,which is not a great indicator 45% warm,55% cold.

So wait Autumn type for 2014 with interest.

10 September 2013 08:43:40

To be honest a very mild winter is overdue and thats where my money is, nothing scientific to back this up but when you consider 4 out of the last 5 has been cold something has to give.

Here in East Cumbria nothing could be as frustrating as last winter so the thought of a 3 month Bartlett doesnt worry me, yes a 2010 or 2011 winter would be nice but this is the UK and I think we have used up our quota of cold winters for a while.

 

Andy

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 

Can't figure out where people are getting that from given that 2011/12 was so mild, plus the fact we had so many mild winters during the 90's and early 2000's so, if anything, we are due a long run of very cold winters.

Gavin P
10 September 2013 09:13:15

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/CFSv2/CFSv2seasonal.shtml

The latesdt update,Sept 9th, from NOAA of CFSv2 shows increasing cold anomalies over Scandinavia for the months of Dec,Jan,Feb.

Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

Looking at the 700mb anomaly charts, I can see a mixed October acting as a transition month after which mid-lat blocking starts to build to higher latitudes in November. By December we have proper high-latitude blocking but not without interruptions. Seeing the largest area of +ve anomalies near to Svalbard and extending towards Siberia is promising for some long-fetch continental cold.

The blocking becomes very dominant in January - CFS has been showing a similar idea for some time now, and it does resemble what it got up to prior to March 2013....!

In February the blocking starts to wane but the anomalies still look loaded with potential considering the over-energetic nature of the CFS model, which tends to generate strong storms that force their way to higher latitudes that it is realistic to anticipate.


In fact, if you take the fact that CFS hasn't wavered much on the broad theme of the winter months over the past few weeks, and then adjust the -ve anomalies in the charts southward a bit to account for that poleward bias... well, then you're looking at a potentially very cold winter being suggested.

It's just one model though, and there are numerous others out there - which Gavin P reviews in his excellent seasonal outlook videos.

Firstly, there's the Met Office's ensemble model, which I have some respect for, and has offered support on previous updates - so my eyes are on that one when the new charts come through.

Next is JAMSTEC/JAM. Not sure I really take much stock in that one as it's a bit hit and miss, but it would be nice to get that one in support.

Then there's the BCC - now that model is a bit of a joke IMO, as it's been way wide of the mark for the last few seasons.

There's a couple of others but I can't recall them off the top of my head and even if I could I don't think I'd have much of a clue regarding their pros and cons.

Originally Posted by: roger63 

There's the Russian, Korean and Brazillian model's + JMA.

Personally I like JAMSTEC/IOD - If this autumn turns out cooler than average (and I'm increasingly thinking it could do) it was the only model consistently predicting it - 6 out of 8 updates from this model went for a cooler than average autumn.


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Ally Pally Snowman
10 September 2013 09:36:47

This mornings CFS 9month has a very cold and snowy January.  Obviously its early days but the signs look good for another cold winter.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfse_cartes.php?ech=2874&mode=2&carte=0&run=1


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
nsrobins
10 September 2013 09:59:38

This mornings CFS 9month has a very cold and snowy January.  Obviously its early days but the signs look good for another cold winter.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfse_cartes.php?ech=2874&mode=2&carte=0&run=1

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 


One more run like that from CFS, due next Thursday week, and I'll be waxing the skis.


Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

kendalian
10 September 2013 10:50:33

This mornings CFS 9month has a very cold and snowy January.  Obviously its early days but the signs look good for another cold winter.

http://www.meteociel.fr/modeles/cfse_cartes.php?ech=2874&mode=2&carte=0&run=1

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 


One more run like that from CFS, due next Thursday week, and I'll be waxing the skis.

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

 

The CFS charts are scary for January

 

For those of you who like dates and coincidences....

2013/14 is the 200th anniversary of the awesome winter of 1813/14 with a DJF CET of 0.4 C. Only 1962/3 was colder in the 200 years since.

2013/14 is also an England Ashes tour of Australia, which for reasons unknown often coincides with a bad winter.

If next Thursday's charts are similar I'll be digging out the thermals

 

 

 

KevBrads1
10 September 2013 13:11:58
We not had a notably cold February for years. The last one was 1991. We have had December 2010 and the cold January 2010, both at least 2.0C below the 1961-90 average in recent times. Add in that the fact we just had that remarkably cold March, it feels like a really cold February has to be round the corner.

If we can get a December and March as cold as that still, I can't see why we can't get a frigid February at least in the near future.


MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238

Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgrSD1BwFz2feWDTydhpEhQ/playlists

KevBrads1
10 September 2013 13:28:44

To be honest a very mild winter is overdue and thats where my money is, nothing scientific to back this up but when you consider 4 out of the last 5 has been cold something has to give.

Here in East Cumbria nothing could be as frustrating as last winter so the thought of a 3 month Bartlett doesnt worry me, yes a 2010 or 2011 winter would be nice but this is the UK and I think we have used up our quota of cold winters for a while.

 

Andy

Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 

Can't figure out where people are getting that from given that 2011/12 was so mild, plus the fact we had so many mild winters during the 90's and early 2000's so, if anything, we are due a long run of very cold winters.

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 

You say early 2000s but IMO I would go even further, it wasn't until 2008-09 that we actually got what I called a half decent coldish winter. 2005-06 wasn't mild but neither were it cold. The Manchester Winter Index finally broke through 100 barrier for the first time since 1995-96 for winter 2008-09.

And as I made in a recent post, if we are talking about quotas, checks and balances are we not overdue a notably cold February?

I personally not a great believer in quotas etc as what balances what out?


MANCHESTER SUMMER INDEX for 2021: 238

Timelapses, old weather forecasts and natural phenomena videos can be seen on this site

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgrSD1BwFz2feWDTydhpEhQ/playlists

Snowfan
10 September 2013 16:21:28
richardabdn
10 September 2013 18:37:56

To be honest a very mild winter is overdue and thats where my money is, nothing scientific to back this up but when you consider 4 out of the last 5 has been cold something has to give.

Here in East Cumbria nothing could be as frustrating as last winter so the thought of a 3 month Bartlett doesnt worry me, yes a 2010 or 2011 winter would be nice but this is the UK and I think we have used up our quota of cold winters for a while.

 

Andy

Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 

Can't figure out where people are getting that from given that 2011/12 was so mild, plus the fact we had so many mild winters during the 90's and early 2000's so, if anything, we are due a long run of very cold winters.

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 

Completely agree. It's ridiculous to suggest a mild winter is overdue. 3 of the last 7 winters here (06/07, 07/08 and 11/12) have been very mild and virtually snowless compared to only one between 1999 and 2006 (99/00).


 

2009/10 and 2010/11 have been the only properly cold winters in the past decade here and in the case of the latter was entirely due to the extreme December. 2008/09 was average and last winter wasn't all that cold and certainly not snowy.



 

In any case I'm only interested in seeing decent snowfalls which the likes of 1998/99, 2001/02, 2003/04 all managed despite being milder than average and which last winter didn't despite being colder than average. 



No point in being cold if you don't get decent hard frosts or good snowfalls. 3 months of March 2013 weather would be a nightmare come true.


Aberdeen: The only place that misses out on everything

2023 - The Year that's Constantly Worse than a Bad November

2024 - 2023 without the Good Bits

2025 - The Weekend Curse hell intensifies

LeedsLad123
10 September 2013 19:02:33
Yeah. We need a 2-decade run of mostly cold winters to offset the 90s and most of the 2000s.
Whitkirk, Leeds - 85m ASL.
nsrobins
11 September 2013 10:52:49

Completely agree. It's ridiculous to suggest a mild winter is overdue. 3 of the last 7 winters here (06/07, 07/08 and 11/12) have been very mild and virtually snowless compared to only one between 1999 and 2006 (99/00).


 

Originally Posted by: richardabdn 

 

But we're not talking about 'here' or 'there' are we? 2011/12 CET shows Dec and Jan being just a degree above the mean and Feb was actually colder than the mean.

I know the fact that the lack of a six-week blizzard and permafrost in your garden caused you a great deal of anger, but surely we can only discuss UK-wide trends and averages at this stage


Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

11 September 2013 12:01:39

Decided to start a little experiment on my page to see how accurate the long range models actually are - https://www.facebook.com/WeatherWatchUK/posts/234140603406594?notif_t=like

Any possible pressure setups I've missed out?

nsrobins
11 September 2013 12:13:33

Decided to start a little experiment on my page to see how accurate the long range models actually are - https://www.facebook.com/WeatherWatchUK/posts/234140603406594?notif_t=like

Any possible pressure setups I've missed out?

Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 

Blocked here at work but I'll definitely have a look at that later.


Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

11 September 2013 12:24:37

Decided to start a little experiment on my page to see how accurate the long range models actually are - https://www.facebook.com/WeatherWatchUK/posts/234140603406594?notif_t=like

Any possible pressure setups I've missed out?

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

Blocked here at work but I'll definitely have a look at that later.

Originally Posted by: ManUtdMatt1986 

As an experiment I thought I would start doing a count of the different options shown by the CFS model for the winter and Christmas periods (perhaps the other long range models too but they update less frequently) just to see how close to the actual outcome they end up being.

So, starting with this morning's model run.



December 2013

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to ou...r north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland High)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0



January 2014

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland to Scandinavia)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0



February 2014

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0



Christmas 2013

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland High)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0

 

 

I guess I should add "High pressure close to/over the UK, delivering cool and calm conditions".

11 September 2013 15:18:09

Upadted scores following the latest CFS update.

 



DECEMBER 2013

Pressure

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland High)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 1

Temperature

Well below average - 1
Slightly below average - 0
Average - 0
Slightly above average - 1
Well above average - 0

 


JANUARY 2014

Pressure

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 2 (1 x Greenland to Scandinavia, 1 x Greenland)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0

Temperature

Well below average - 2
Slightly below average - 0
Average - 0
Slightly above average - 0
Well above average - 0

 


FEBRUARY 2014

Pressure

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 2 (2 x Greenland)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 0

Temperature

Well below average - 1
Slightly below average - 1
Average - 0
Slightly above average - 0
Well above average - 0

 


CHRISTMAS 2013

Pressure

Northern Blocking delivering cold (i.e. high pressure to our north & low pressure to our south) - 1 (Greenland)

Northern blocking not delivering cold (i.e. the blocking is too far west or east to cut off mild westerlies) - 0

Zonal (i.e. high pressure to our south & low pressure to our north resulting in mild westerlies) - 1

Temperature

Well below average - 1
Slightly below average - 0
Average - 0
Slightly above average - 1
Well above average - 0

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