The Weather Outlook

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Stormchaser
08 August 2011 22:14:00

20032004200520062007200820092010
11.2411.5311.4413.8310.5510.0611.3110.02
5.294.854.756.846.123.222.303.39

Just out of interest I've produced these figures which show the mean temperature across September, October and November in the middle row and the mean temperature across the following December, January and February in the bottom row, these being for my own location.

 

The mildest Autumn was followed by the mildest winter, agreeing with the point made by Roger above. Then, however, we can see that the second mildest winter followed on from the third coldest Autumn here. The coldest Autumn did lead to the third coldest winter, however, this being a pretty chilly one at that, mostly due to that extraordinary December of 2010. The coldest winter of all followed a middle-ground Autumn, suggesting little of much worth.


Obviously, the data source is way too small and locallised to be able to determine the existence or not of a pattern that is fairly weak on the much wider scale. At least the strong relationship between very mild Autumns and mild winters is supported. Little insight can be offered regarding the relationships elsewhere, but this has been an interesting venture for me nonetheless

 

 

Currently Autumn looks cold according to a number of sources that I've seen over the past month or so (IRI for one: http://iri.columbia.edu/climate/forecast/net_asmt/2011/jul2011/images/SON11_Eur_temp.gif and then the CFS posted earlier for another) so the liklihood of a cold winter could be viewed to be higher than 50% on that regard alone. If only it were that simple.


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2025's Homeland Extremes:

T-Max: 32.0°C 12th Aug | T-Min: -5.4°C 4th Jan | Wettest Day: 31.8 mm 18th Dec | Ice Days: None

Keep Calm and Forecast On

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
09 August 2011 09:55:22

20032004200520062007200820092010
11.2411.5311.4413.8310.5510.0611.3110.02
5.294.854.756.846.123.222.303.39

Just out of interest I've produced these figures which show the mean temperature across September, October and November in the middle row and the mean temperature across the following December, January and February in the bottom row, these being for my own location.

 

The mildest Autumn was followed by the mildest winter, agreeing with the point made by Roger above. Then, however, we can see that the second mildest winter followed on from the third coldest Autumn here. The coldest Autumn did lead to the third coldest winter, however, this being a pretty chilly one at that, mostly due to that extraordinary December of 2010. The coldest winter of all followed a middle-ground Autumn, suggesting little of much worth.


Obviously, the data source is way too small and locallised to be able to determine the existence or not of a pattern that is fairly weak on the much wider scale. At least the strong relationship between very mild Autumns and mild winters is supported. Little insight can be offered regarding the relationships elsewhere, but this has been an interesting venture for me nonetheless

 

 

Currently Autumn looks cold according to a number of sources that I've seen over the past month or so (IRI for one: http://iri.columbia.edu/climate/forecast/net_asmt/2011/jul2011/images/SON11_Eur_temp.gif and then the CFS posted earlier for another) so the liklihood of a cold winter could be viewed to be higher than 50% on that regard alone. If only it were that simple.

Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

Here is a chart classifying seasons according to a combination of wetness/dryness and warm/cold.It is based on years 1850-2005 using a classifcation developed by Lionel Smith  in his book "Seasonal Weather" and based on readings from Kew and later Heathrow (adjusted to Kew averages).Full details of classifcation sysyem are set out to right of the chart.

The chart shows that there is liitle link beween preceding seasons and the following winter except in infrequently occurring years.Th eeception is Autumn but here it is the wet dry criteria which is more important than the warm/cold.

The most reliable indicator for frequently occurring seasonal types is the combination of warm and dry which has 48 years in it and where 77% 0f the follwing winters were above average.

Although infrequent in ocurrence,7 out of  8 very cold,very wet summers produced below average winters.I'm not sure whether summer 2011 will fall in this group.

                        
                        
                        
                        
   Probability of a cold winter following preceding seasons     The original Lionel Smith classiication in "Seasonal Weather" was   based   
   Spring  Summer  Autumn   on average temperatures and rainfall for each season,    
    ColdSub    Cold Sub    Cold Sub   across the 100years 1850/51- 1949/50.The variance from average was used   
 Rain Temp Winter Totals   WintTotals   Winter Totals  to produce  50/50 split between Wet /Dry years and Warm/Cold years.  
   No %  No%  No%  Very wet and very dry years were defined in terms of divergence from average seasonal rainfall.
1VWVW425  3100  1346  For temperatures Spring and Autumn were divergence from average.However the  
2VWW1116  20  1173  winter and summer extremes were based on the mean temperature of the coldest 
3VWC1275  1450  850  and warmest months of the two seasons.     
4VWVC666Vwet 40888V Wet 63475V wet 58          
5WVW1227  520  1136  The full classifcation,with temperatures converted to centigrade is as follows. 
6WW1850  1323  1850   Note Summer and Winter temps are based on warmest/coldest month. 
7WC1533  2050  1136  Values based on Kew and then adjusted Hreeathrow data.   
8WVC4100Wet  45757Wet   45 366Wet 45 RainfallmmSpring SummerAutumnWinter   
9DVW1323  1483  922  Very Wet >167>213>219>187   
10DW1242  1443  1729  Wet 128-167160-213175-219134-187   
11DC1937  1225  1560  Dry 89-127120-159125-17494-133   
12DVC683Dry 40 650Dry  46 633Dry 40 Very Dry <89<120<125<94   
13VDVW813  2040  1414           
14VDW1050  1136  825  Tempc       
15VDC666  757  560  Very Warm>9.7>18.6>11.1>4.7   
16VDVC2100Vdry 4810V Dry 40 425V dry 28 Warm 8.9-9.717.5-18.610.3-11.13.3-4.7   
               Cold  8.1-8.816.3-17.49.5-10.22.0-3.2   
  Total 15842  15742  15742  Very Cold <8.1<16.3<9.5<2.0   
                        
 Spring Sub Groups Summer Sub GroupsAutumn Sub Groups           
               The classification of each season is based on the above.   
  VC1883 VWVC888 DVW922  To make spreadsheet manipulation easy a number has    
  VWC1275 VW C1450 DW1729  been assigned to each seasonal catergory as below.    
  VDC667 VWVW3100 VDW1414   Wet/DryWarm/cold     
  Total3678 Total 2568 VDVW825  1VWVW      
          Total 4823  2VWW      
               3VWC      
          80% of very cold winters   4VWVC      
          followed wet autumns 5WVW      
               6WW      
               7WC      
               8WVC      
               9DVW      
               10DW      
               11DC      
               12DVC      
               13VDVW      
               14VDW      
               15VDC      
               16VDVC      
                        
Saint Snow
09 August 2011 11:29:41

There's been a much higher occurence of high pressure located generally over Greenland in the past few years, which has obviously influenced our weather in across seasons at times (although not continuously).

I think the only conclusion I would draw is that if this propensity for blocking at more northen latitudes continues through the winter, it will give a greater chance of the UK being affected by cold and snowy weather.

Beyond that, we move toward crystal ball gazing.

 

 


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

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tallyho_83
14 August 2011 17:40:20

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

CFS Seasonal T2m probability forecast:

Does anyone have the link where it shows the above or below average temperature anomaly!?


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)


Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

rayjp
14 August 2011 17:45:53

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

CFS Seasonal T2m probability forecast:

Does anyone have the link where it shows the above or below average temperature anomaly!?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Sorry what a stupid comment to.
NOt the same old same old, I can remember some years with very little blue anywhere.
That doesnt mean that one of those months is still very cold.
A forecast for between 3-6 months plus away and you come out with the same old same old!!!!!!!

Essan
14 August 2011 18:16:32

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Like the Meto GloSea4 projections, you need to look at several runs in order to be able to determine any possible forecast. 

Which is why the media constantly get it wrong.  Remember last autumn when they told us it'd be a mild winter - because they didn't undertand the model output


Andy

Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl

Weather & Earth Science News 

Look in the doubt we've wallowed, look at the leaders we've followed, look at the lies we've swallowed, and I don't want to hear no more

nouska
14 August 2011 18:58:29
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/ 

What you have posted is the percentage probability charts, no sign of an orange or red pixel anywhere near the UK on the T2m anomaly charts.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/images3/euT2mSea.gif 

rayjp
14 August 2011 19:23:22
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/ 

What you have posted is the percentage probability charts, no sign of an orange or red pixel anywhere near the UK on the T2m anomaly charts.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/images3/euT2mSea.gif[/quote]

Well I have to say based on those charts above, that must be "based on just these charts" that lookds like one of the most average winters for the whole of NW Europe, no blue, no orange, in fact I dont remember seeing anything like that quoted here before.

roger63
  • roger63
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
14 August 2011 20:24:44
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/ 

What you have posted is the percentage probability charts, no sign of an orange or red pixel anywhere near the UK on the T2m anomaly charts.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst/images3/euT2mSea.gif[/quote]

Well I have to say based on those charts above, that must be "based on just these charts" that lookds like one of the most average winters for the whole of NW Europe, no blue, no orange, in fact I dont remember seeing anything like that quoted here before.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/ensodisc.pdf 

The latest ENSO update."Synoposis is that ENSO neutral conditions are likely to continue into N hemsiphere fall with ENSO neutral or weak la Nina equally likely therafter"

I can only find ENSO records for the last 60 years.Thes eshow that El Nino conditions produced only 24% cold winters(below 3.9 CET) ,whereas La Nina conditions deliverd 41% cold.The most favourable ENSO condition is weak La Nina with 55% cold including 62/63.However sample size is only 9 years so unilkely to be statistically significant.

Brian Gaze
14 August 2011 20:25:24

Several people (no idea whether they are members on the forum or not) have em'd me privately to 'explain' that the current increase in solar activity is the type which doesn't increase the chances of milder weather in western European winters. I'm not really sure why some folk seem to be interested in influencing the winter forecast which I issue as it wont make a jot of difference to the outcome.


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Gavin P
14 August 2011 21:31:32

Just to get everyone in the mood, how about this beauty from one of the coldest Februarys on record;

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/1895/Rrea00118950206.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/1895/Rrea00218950206.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/1895/Rrea00118950207.gif

http://www.wetterzentrale.de/archive/ra/1895/Rrea00218950207.gif


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Jiries
14 August 2011 22:45:12

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

CFS Seasonal T2m probability forecast:

Does anyone have the link where it shows the above or below average temperature anomaly!?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

If they come off with UK being the warmest place due to nature balancing out after having cool poor summer we have.  I think it a strange chart to show Uk the warmest spot and warmer than Sahara desert and the Med.

Gavin P
14 August 2011 23:03:06

That doesn't show temperature is shows probability.


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Stormchaser
15 August 2011 08:17:52

CFS has been showing an amplified Azores High dominating for much of the winter - a cold but not very cold setup (could still bring near 0C maxima if we get extensive fog, for example) and with occasional wet weather, some snow in the north more particularly later on. The high pressure is predicted to be so close that it keeps us often dry, which, being after fairly dry synoptic setups shown for October and November, makes me wonder if we could find ourselves in trouble due to a lack of precipitation.

 

Then, however, I remember how unreliable these charts of been lately. I've also noticed a trend for a positive anomaly to suddenly be introduced across Greenland once we get into a month, having not been shown beforehand. If that happened with those winter predictions, we'd be very cold very often, if also rather dry still.


If you have any problems or queries relating to TWO you can Email [email protected]

https://twitter.com/peacockreports 

2025's Homeland Extremes:

T-Max: 32.0°C 12th Aug | T-Min: -5.4°C 4th Jan | Wettest Day: 31.8 mm 18th Dec | Ice Days: None

Keep Calm and Forecast On

LeedsLad123
15 August 2011 09:23:06

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

CFS Seasonal T2m probability forecast:

Does anyone have the link where it shows the above or below average temperature anomaly!?

Originally Posted by: Jiries 

If they come off with UK being the warmest place due to nature balancing out after having cool poor summer we have.  I think it a strange chart to show Uk the warmest spot and warmer than Sahara desert and the Med.

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Don't worry, they change regurlarly. I don't think nature balancing out exists, either. 


Whitkirk, Leeds - 85m ASL.
nouska
15 August 2011 19:25:11
http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/enso_advisory/ensodisc.pdf  The latest ENSO update."Synoposis is that ENSO neutral conditions are likely to continue into N hemsiphere fall with ENSO neutral or weak la Nina equally likely therafter" I can only find ENSO records for the last 60 years.Thes eshow that El Nino conditions produced only 24% cold winters(below 3.9 CET) ,whereas La Nina conditions deliverd 41% cold.The most favourable ENSO condition is weak La Nina with 55% cold including 62/63.However sample size is only 9 years so unilkely to be statistically significant.

The latest model runs are trending towards stronger La Nina by winter.

http://origin.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfsv2fcst/images3/nino34Mon.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b245/ndgarcia/seasonal_charts_2tm2m20temperaturetercile20summary220monthsTropics201108chart.gif

Gavin P
15 August 2011 20:31:54

I reakon CFS is overdoing that La Nina prediction a bit. Definately thinking more of a weak La Nina type event as opposed to moderate.


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Solar Cycles
15 August 2011 20:38:04

I reakon CFS is overdoing that La Nina prediction a bit. Definately thinking more of a weak La Nina type event as opposed to moderate.

Originally Posted by: Gavin P 

I'm not so sure, those cold water anomolies which are begining to show their hand have all the hallmarks of a strengthening nina. I hope I'm wrong or winter could end early again.

Gavin P
15 August 2011 20:56:27

I reakon CFS is overdoing that La Nina prediction a bit. Definately thinking more of a weak La Nina type event as opposed to moderate.

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 

I'm not so sure, those cold water anomolies which are begining to show their hand have all the hallmarks of a strengthening nina. I hope I'm wrong or winter could end early again.

Originally Posted by: Gavin P 

It would be quite unusual to have a double dip La Nina thats as intense as the the first dip. It can/has happened (last time was 99/00 after the original 98/99 event) but the most likely option would be for a weak La Nina, IMO.

Often CFS does over do it - For instance this time last year it was forecasting a very intense event that eventually came out as moderate.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst_history/201008/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/people/wwang/cfs_fcst_history/201102/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Hungry Tiger
15 August 2011 21:10:26

Well - I think we will have a cold winter.

Why? - well we have just had another crap summer.

Not very scientific - I know - but I think its a probability based on poor summers = cold winters.

Having said that look at summer 1988 - and then the following winter.

But to be much more scientific - we have had northern blocking this summer - we all know what that means for winter.

 


Gavin S. FRmetS.

TWO Moderator.

Contact the TWO team - [email protected]

South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.



15 August 2011 21:22:35

Once again, like I said last year, I think whatever happens we will get a noticeable cold period or major snow event, that people refer to months/years down the line. Last year I was correct with the nov/december period.

But I think there is more chance of it happening throughout winter and with, what maybe a blocked autumn judging by most lrfs models, it looks like a good start for those wanting cold and snow. 

It would be fantastic if we got a major snowstorm on christmas eve/day, like late nov/early dec and just before xmas period. 

Jiries
15 August 2011 21:58:15

What a farce!!! Most of Europe colder than average except the UK!!! Same old same old....pretty boring really, you see these similar forecasts every year!

CFS Seasonal T2m probability forecast:

Does anyone have the link where it shows the above or below average temperature anomaly!?

Originally Posted by: LeedsLad123 

If they come off with UK being the warmest place due to nature balancing out after having cool poor summer we have.  I think it a strange chart to show Uk the warmest spot and warmer than Sahara desert and the Med.

Originally Posted by: Jiries 

Don't worry, they change regurlarly. I don't think nature balancing out exists, either. 

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

It does after a hot April, the temperatures in June was recorded as low as daily April maxes then now we may have late summer and warmer Autumn to make up for the cool summer.  Only this country have a problem with many nature balancing out a lot of times and always strike iin a bad time, like you want the extreme cold we get this in summer instead when it wasted, or very mild in winter when we want it in summer it also wasted, then very hot/cold Spring or Autumn are also wasted as you cannot enjoy it or use them.   I seen Scottish's max temps have very low maxes in summer and does not do anything useful to it and come to winter they may get same values or even higher on some Foehn set-ups days as they get it sometimes. 

Jiries
15 August 2011 23:13:21

I did enjoy the heat in April but I wish that also occur in July as well under this perfect prolonged synoptics patterns and very dry landscape that help to deliver high temps. 

Gavin P
16 August 2011 08:44:28

Thanks Matt

I tend to start taking more notice of the long range models from about three months out, so for winter, starting September.

Nevertheless, it would be interesting to get another cold December - We had two severe cold Decembers in 1878 and 1879, so this isn't without precident....


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

Solar Cycles
16 August 2011 09:03:00

Although nina conditions aren't expected to rise above neutral/weak, the similarities between early winter last year and the pattern emerging for this winter, are strange to say the least. Will we see another December like last years, followed by a milder January, February, followed by an early warm spring. I'm not so sure we will this time, even if those charts that Matt posted verified.  Though the latter part of winter would become more Atlantic dominated, it would really  depend on how far the jet digs south still. Less cold and more unsettled, or mild, wet, and windy?

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