The Weather Outlook

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Hippydave
17 December 2021 11:32:28

As far as I can see the difference from the 00z Op and the 6z Op is all down to small differences in how the jet behaves as it exits the US. Shows how fragile the local pattern is for the UK.

I imagine the ens will have a similar look to the 00z set - some cold, some average to mild and hard to pick a most likely outcome.

All good fun


Home: Tunbridge Wells

Work: Tonbridge

moomin75
17 December 2021 11:34:10

Shocker runs have to be expected... we got a lottery win 2 weeks out... plenty more runs to provide more shockers/wins

Best christmas model watching in years, even if it doesnt come off

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 

 

There are still some very decent runs in the 6z Ensemble suite.

It's not over yet! Have faith.


Witney, Oxfordshire

100m ASL

ballamar
17 December 2021 11:42:15
That’s an encouraging set of ens so far, in isolation you could pick some absolute belters
UncleAlbert
17 December 2021 11:58:25
Well, it has already been said in numerous posts that once the current block shifts NW and weakens we are into high risk less predictable territory and if and when we see belting output over the next several days it does not change this. Still great fun though.

Saint Snow
17 December 2021 12:01:58

That’s an encouraging set of ens so far, in isolation you could pick some absolute belters

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

 

Yes, the Ens do give some comfort. Liverpool on Xmas Day evening have 17 members with 850's at -5c or below including the Control (-6.5c) and Op (-8.5c).

The nirvana would be snow setting in in Xmas Eve afternoon and not stopping until the early hours Xmas Day, and that broad scenario has shown on a few runs, but it's always going to be lottery-winning odds to get that just perfect. At the moment, the chances of that have very much receded per the MO.


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

fairweather
17 December 2021 12:16:42

Downgrade on ensembles. 0z there was a clear cold cluster and a clear mild cluster. Now we are back to a random spread between mild and cold from Christmas. I prefer the former because you had a 50/50 chance of cold. Now it's more like 33% cold, 33% average and 33% mild. So lower chance of decent cold but really still as much chance as the other options. Unfortunately we all know which way the dice usually falls.


S.Essex, 42m ASL
glenogle
17 December 2021 12:26:12
Will Darren be doing an ensemble watch? Surely time to get one started, or is it only preferred in proper easterly set up?
UserPostedImage LLTNP 105m asl 
Gandalf The White
17 December 2021 12:36:35

I would imagine this 06z Op sits high (ish) in the suite but the trend for northward correction continues to evolve into a diluted affair.
Where’s Gandalf?

 

edit: oh dear- seems supported:

https://www.wetterzentrale.de/en/show_diagrams.php?model=gfs&lid=ENS&var=2&bw=1&geoid=49069

 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 

Busy with other things but watching the slow motion car crash in here with some amusement.

Does anyone really think 500 miles either way is relevant 180 hours out?

If we think back to the output over the last week we’ve had all manner of options which have come and gone. The one consistent theme has been the models struggling hugely with the jet stream profile through next week. We’ve seen changes feeding through in the amount of energy in the jet and how much goes into the northern and southern arms. That’s moved on to pushing energy right through the prime meridian. This will continue to evolve as new and better signals emerge about how the atmosphere is behaving; the recent trends could continue or change again.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Rob K
17 December 2021 13:01:08
Full GEFS is out and shows a bit of a swing away from extended cold, at least for the south. Both op and control follow each other fairly closely on the milder side which is always a concern. But as we have seen, the whole ensemble set can and does flip rapidly especially in such a finely balanced set-up as this.

Whatever happens it's more exciting than the usual situation where the only thing to wonder about for Xmas Day is exactly how strong and mild the southwesterlies will be!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

BJBlake
17 December 2021 13:07:36

 

Busy with other things but watching the slow motion car crash in here with some amusement.

Does anyone really think 500 miles either way is relevant 180 hours out?

If we think back to the output over the last week we’ve had all manner of options which have come and gone. The one consistent theme has been the models struggling hugely with the jet stream profile through next week. We’ve seen changes feeding through in the amount of energy in the jet and how much goes into the northern and southern arms. That’s moved on to pushing energy right through the prime meridian. This will continue to evolve as new and better signals emerge about how the atmosphere is behaving; the recent trends could continue or change again.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

That is a very sensible and sane post.

Quite why it is so difficult to predict the jet in a blocked scenario compared to the more typical westerly flow, is a little harder to understand, apart from the obvious that blocks are relatively rare and the data less numerous perhaps. `your thoughts on that would be of value.

It is all very interesting and a tad tantalising - even if it does crash and burn - like so many before - in slow-mo.


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
tallyho_83
17 December 2021 13:11:52

Full GEFS is out and shows a bit of a swing away from extended cold, at least for the south. Both op and control follow each other fairly closely on the milder side which is always a concern. But as we have seen, the whole ensemble set can and does flip rapidly especially in such a finely balanced set-up as this.

Whatever happens it's more exciting than the usual situation where the only thing to wonder about for Xmas Day is exactly how strong and mild the southwesterlies will be!

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

Will we see the Met Office long range forecast change given this mornings 06z GFS?

UK long range weather forecast

Tuesday 21 Dec - Thursday 30 Dec

The start of this period is looking to be settled and predominantly dry with large amounts of cloud. Isolated mist and fog patches developing in clearer areas. In general, cloud amounts will tend to reduce with time, with a corresponding increase in the risk of overnight fog and frost, which may be slow to clear by day in some areas. Towards the middle of the period, there is an increasing chance of more unsettled and windier weather affecting the UK, with rain, and perhaps snow, possible for some places. Temperatures will generally be near to below normal, perhaps rather cold in the south, feeling chilly where any fog persists, and locally mild in the north and northwest.

Updated: 14:00 (UTC) on Thu 16 Dec 2021


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

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Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

marcus72
17 December 2021 13:19:30

Quite why it is so difficult to predict the jet in a blocked scenario compared to the more typical westerly flow, is a little harder to understand

Originally Posted by: BJBlake 

My very simplified layman's analogy would be that the flow of water in a stream is (relatively) easy to predict. Throw a big rock into the stream to disturb the flow, and suddenly the chaotic nature of all the small ripples and eddies becomes way more complex to predict or model. Chaos theory in full effect. I'm sure it was someone on here many years ago who also described it as like making a horse walk backwards. I liked that one too  🙂


Langstone, SE Hampshire
BJBlake
17 December 2021 13:22:43

Of the GFS run, there are 9 perts that bring Boxing Day cold, and the same number that deliver New year cold - some right through: Thiis is just under a 3rd, and perts at this ratio have been the only consistent factor in this unveiling mystery as to the actual Christmas weather. This means we have a 30% chance of seeing cold at Christmas, and the same for New Year. 35% deliver Meh and the remainder quite mild weather, some (like the OP) end up exceptionally mild: 


Brecklands, South Norfolk 28m ASL
ballamar
17 December 2021 13:50:02

 

Will we see the Met Office long range forecast change given this mornings 06z GFS?

UK long range weather forecast

Tuesday 21 Dec - Thursday 30 Dec

The start of this period is looking to be settled and predominantly dry with large amounts of cloud. Isolated mist and fog patches developing in clearer areas. In general, cloud amounts will tend to reduce with time, with a corresponding increase in the risk of overnight fog and frost, which may be slow to clear by day in some areas. Towards the middle of the period, there is an increasing chance of more unsettled and windier weather affecting the UK, with rain, and perhaps snow, possible for some places. Temperatures will generally be near to below normal, perhaps rather cold in the south, feeling chilly where any fog persists, and locally mild in the north and northwest.

Updated: 14:00 (UTC) on Thu 16 Dec 2021

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

no not on one run

Brian Gaze
17 December 2021 13:52:20

Not really that much difference between the 00z and 06z GEFS.

 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

White Meadows
17 December 2021 14:11:35

Not really that much difference between the 00z and 06z GEFS.

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Good illustrations, those. 

meanwhile, whatever’s going on out east looks increasingly short lived..

http://www.weersite.net/?actueel&ensemble&ecmwfpluim

 

western100
17 December 2021 14:46:13

 

no not on one run

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

They will have I pick one set of runs (trend of a couple) to make their written forecast so that written forecast will have been off the back of the last couple of runs which were rather cold

Today has changed so far….see what 12z shows soon

it will probably get re written slightly if there is a clear shift 

Mass public will have absolutely no memory of what the previous update said lol. My elderly parents will not be saying “that said cold yesterday” 


Worcestershire / Warwickshire Border

100m ASL

X…..@Weather4u2

White Meadows
17 December 2021 15:15:02

Key change in today’s update:

“ the threat of rain or wintery conditions increases”

Note the odd and unusual spelling of ‘wintry’ / ‘winter-y’

Looks like the south west will bear the brunt of any wet weather.
Remember wintry can mean cold rain as much as blizzards.

in other words, it’s looking very uncertain, although they don’t mention low confidence 

Lionel Hutz
17 December 2021 15:35:23

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/gefs.aspx?modelrun=na&lg=850&lglocation=london

While the control and op don't look too good after Christmas, there's still a clear cluster of cold on the GFS spaghettis.

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/gefs.aspx?run=na&lg=850&lglocation=dublin&charthour=006&chartname=ps_500hpa&chartregion=na-region&p=1&charttag=PS%20500hPa%20(GPDM)

Interestingly, the cold cluster is more marked on the Dublin ensemble.


Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL



Russwirral
17 December 2021 15:40:06
Alot of chatter about flip and flopping of models.

But things will quickly change if the cold arrives and becomes stubborn. I think the atlantic seems to be forecasted to sweep through Europe a bit too easily considering how much blocks alter the weather once embedded IMO

For me - thats the curve ball in all of this... makes it all quite exciting. For now the models just offer titilation


CField
17 December 2021 16:30:52

Looking at GFS 168hrs any more downgrades will be staring 

Full blown  East Coast cyclogenesis in the face 2014 style


Favourite snowstorm

Famous channel low

Dec 31st 1978

Hastings East Sussex

Foot of level snow severe drifting

Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius

SJV
17 December 2021 16:33:47
GFS blowing up another dartboard low. It has no idea. Bin!
Saint Snow
17 December 2021 16:34:44

The 12z GFS is another stinker.

By midday on Xmas Eve, all of Wales, almost all of England is in positive 850hpa territory.

Once again, the highway for lows is directly over the UK between a block to our north and a huge high pressure belt to our south.

The angle of attack for the low on this run is particularly horrible for the UK (as in, it feeds much milder air over us before it)


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

moomin75
17 December 2021 16:37:04

The 12z GFS is another stinker.

By midday on Xmas Eve, all of Wales, almost all of England is in positive 850hpa territory.

Once again, the highway for lows is directly over the UK between a block to our north and a huge high pressure belt to our south.

The angle of attack for the low on this run is particularly horrible for the UK (as in, it feeds much milder air over us before it)

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

No question, the trend is now not our friend at all.

A pretty rotten 12z GFS and UKMO not much better.

But let's wait again till see where it sits in the Ensembles and bear in mind that things will change in a week.


Witney, Oxfordshire

100m ASL

Ally Pally Snowman
17 December 2021 16:37:32

GFS having an absolute mare at the moment all over the shop. Horrific 12z.


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.

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