Sulphates are salts not gases - but that's global dimming for you 

Haha. Salted! Thank you.

 

I can guarantee we won't get them cheaper than the EU !

The NHS has many flaws - too big, too unmanageable, over bureaucratic, no limit on use. However, it does have one big advantage - enormous buying power which means it can beat down the price from suppliers. So I don't think you are correct on that point.

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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/uk-minister-admits-less-than-10-of-contact-tracers-recruited

This is worrying.

We need to get this right, as pre-vaccine, it could be one of our only hopes to ease this crisis.

Again, I encourage everyone to watch this:-

 

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-country-that-beat-the-virus

Contract tracing is a way out of this crisis. 

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Haha. Anyway, how as we have cleaned the air over the last two decades, why has our climate got warmer still? The harmful greenhouse gasses are still up there, will be for many perhaps hundreds of years. The other gasses like sulfates that contribute towards global dimming and keeping the earth cooler only last at best three weeks. So, as we clean the air, the greenhouse gasses are still there but the other gasses that keep us cooler aren't. As we clean the air further, this gas differential will only get larger so we will continue to warm, maybe significantly.

I am all for getting rid of fossil fuels are replacing with cleaner fuels, but if people think by stopping emissions now will solve the problem, it won't. In contrast, the action of cleaning the air will only speed up the warming quicker. I don't know what the answer is but it appears our innocent actions may be taking us towards the precipice even quicker.

There has been actual studies on this also. I posted some in the climate threads one time. But yes, cleaner air = warmer air and warmer air = climate panic. 

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Very soon, lockdown will be causing more deaths than the virus:

Nice to hear some practical common sense on the topic.

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Mass demonstrations against the so called lockdown are planned in London tomorrow.

Lock them up, for their own safety.

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Very soon, lockdown will be causing more deaths than the virus:

Nice to hear some practical common sense on the topic.

I'm still surprised you haven't self sacrificed yourself for the good of the economy...

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It's this obviously, people can't surely have believed UK would have over 500,000 deaths when he world total is about half that.
Like everywhere else it will decline rapidly and pious self flagellation by devastating your own economy for years to come makes next to no difference.

Do you (be honest) really have no idea what R0 is? And do you, (be honest), not understand that reducing contact between infected humans (or indeed any animal) reduces the spread of a virus?

Or are you trolling again?

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There has been actual studies on this also. I posted some in the climate threads one time. But yes, cleaner air = warmer air and warmer air = climate panic. 

You really need to think about what you just wrote

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I'm still surprised you haven't self sacrificed yourself for the good of the economy...

The economy underlies everything - without a functioning economy, we cannot fund public services.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/05/15/we-could-open-up-again-and-forget-the-whole-thing/

"...

Wittkowski: Sweden did the right thing. And they had to take a lot of heat for it. Now compare Sweden and the UK. The only difference is that Sweden did fine. They did have a problem. They had a relatively high number of deaths among the nursing homes.They decided to keep society open and they forgot to close nursing homes. Remarkably, the politicians acknowledged that it was a mistake to extend that open concept to nursing homes. The nursing homes should have been isolated to protect the elderly who are at high risk. But I think the Swedish government is doing well to even acknowledge that mistake.

The first death in the United States was in a nursing home in Seattle. And that was by the end of February. So everybody knew that we were expecting the same thing that we had seen in Italy – an epidemic that hits the elderly. But until just this week in New York State, the government told the nursing homes that if they did not take in patients from hospitals, they would lose their funding. So they would have to import the virus from the hospitals.

One third of all deaths in New York State were in nursing homes. One could have prevented 20,000 deaths in the United States by just isolating the nursing homes. After three or four weeks, they could have reopened and everybody would be happy.

That would have been a reasonable strategy. But shutting down schools, driving the economy against the wall – there was no reason for it. The only reason that this nonsense now goes on and on, and people are inventing things like this ‘second wave’, which is going to force us to change society and never live again, is that the politicians are afraid of admitting an error.

..."

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The economy underlies everything - without a functioning economy, we cannot fund public services.

[...Spiked callous complacency omitted...]

 

 

I wouldn't pi** on Spiked - it's too much of a compliment...

 

Again, such thinking as yours leads to justifying the sacrifice of lives for the general good  - so why haven't you done that?

And, please, you're not another who doesn't understand if you lock down, (you stop people moving about)  you stop a virus spreading and that is what happens?

 

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I wouldn't pi** on Spiked - it's too much of a compliment...

 

Again, such thinking as yours leads to justifying the sacrifice of lives for the general good  - so why haven't you done that?

And, please, you're not another who doesn't understand if you lock down, (you stop people moving about)  you stop a virus spreading and that is what happens?

 

Ok - then try the Grauniad for size:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/15/europe-emerges-lockdown-question-hangs-was-sweden-right

"...

Sweden gambled in its response, but so did the rest of the world. South Africa’s lockdown threatens it with economic and political catastrophe. The UN warns that the world could lose four years of growth at a cost of $8.5 trillion. Famine and further disease will be rife. That was surely the greater gamble."

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Lots of commentators saying that the 30% increase the congestion charge will harm business and also push drivers on the tube, risking a surge in infection rates again.

This enforced increase has been blamed on the Mayor and the plebs are lapping it up. It’s seems Tory HQ are positions the Mayor as the bad guy who cut services and now increase the CC.

I’m not a fan of the Mayor. But this government will go to any lengths possible to always look like they coming our smelling of roses.

Anyone seen these fake pictures of Boris huddle over with his hands in his head: the right depcicting that he is battling so hard for us.

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Lots of commentators saying that the 30% increase the congestion charge will harm business and also push drivers on the tube, risking a surge in infection rates again.

In the City at least most of the private vehicles are either taxis or tradesmen.

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Ok - then try the Grauniad for size:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/15/europe-emerges-lockdown-question-hangs-was-sweden-right

"...

Sweden gambled in its response, but so did the rest of the world. South Africa’s lockdown threatens it with economic and political catastrophe. The UN warns that the world could lose four years of growth at a cost of $8.5 trillion. Famine and further disease will be rife. That was surely the greater gamble."

Perhaps, then, you can put a cash value on another life and on yours? If people have to die to enable an economy to be opened up when a nasty virus is nearly under control (Clue: it's the lockdown what did that), why should your life not be one of them? Further, economies are in hibernation, with cheap oil I suspect that some fairly soon point we will see rapid growth, and incredible levels of air pollution.

I do accept these are difficult question, I don't (ever) see those like you put a figure on the value of a life - in £ or jobs.

Me? I would slowly open the economy but insist (by law and heavy fines) people self distanced all the time and wear masks - and get ppe for workers sorted out first too! What value do I put on human life? I don't know the answer, but 30-50K lives have been cut short and, of those infected, roughly the same % have died as did in WW2 (about 1% of Uk population died in WW2). We celebrate and honour those wartime deaths, with covid the best we (not me) seem to be able to do is clap health workers (as if that somehow provided them with the protection they need) and, effectively, call for more deaths....

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Some ridiculous comparisons in that Simon Jenkins article.

When comparing the number of deaths in different countries i think you have to realise that the places which got hit first served as warning to the rest, both government and people.

There has been talk of a lot of different European countries but not much talk about the Netherlands. I got the impression that their version of the lockdown was milder than ours. Is that correct?

 

Perhaps, then, you can put a cash value on another life and on yours? If people have to die to enable an economy to be opened up when a nasty virus is nearly under control (Clue: it's the lockdown what did that), why should your life not be one of them? Further, economies are in hibernation, with cheap oil I suspect that some fairly soon point we will see rapid growth, and incredible levels of air pollution.

I do accept these are difficult question, I don't (ever) see those like you put a figure on the value of a life - in £ or jobs.

Me? I would slowly open the economy but insist (by law and heavy fines) people self distanced all the time and wear masks - and get ppe for workers sorted out first too! What value do I put on human life? I don't know the answer, but 30-50K lives have been cut short and, of those infected, roughly the same % have died as did in WW2 (about 1% of Uk population died in WW2). We celebrate and honour those wartime deaths, with covid the best we (not me) seem to be able to do is clap health workers (as if that somehow provided them with the protection they need) and, effectively, call for more deaths....

Here, here. 

MM why don’t you tell us. What is your value of a life? All you’ve gone on about is the economy. So let’s have it, what is acceptable to you?

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Very soon, lockdown will be causing more deaths than the virus:

Nice to hear some practical common sense on the topic.

This guy came across as a total arsehole. All imo of course!

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Here, here. 

MM why don’t you tell us. What is your value of a life? All you’ve gone on about is the economy. So let’s have it, what is acceptable to you?

Waits...

Anyway, we see Stephen Chalke (head of an Academy chain) says that [wrt open his primary schools] ""Safety measures would be in place, but he stressed that the "long-term social cost" of not opening would "outweigh any short-term medical risks"". So, he expect his school staff to take unquantified risks while (in the same BBC article) he keep safe and speaks safely from his home...

Some men and hypocritical bravao - MM and Chalke the same...

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Here, here. 

MM why don’t you tell us. What is your value of a life? All you’ve gone on about is the economy. So let’s have it, what is acceptable to you?

I never wanted us to be in this place in the first place - we should have done more to keep the virus out in the first place.

However, we have now got into the place where the supposed cure is worse than the virus itself. This virus kills people in certain groups, chiefly the old and those with other conditions, including type-2 diabetes (which itself is related to obesity).

So we need to shield those who are vulnerable, get the testing and contact tracing ramped up and then to get the economy and society for the rest of us functioning as close to normally as is possible.

I have linked to a variety of articles explaining the overkill in the current position.

Here is a related piece from the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext

"...

In summary, COVID-19 is a disease that is highly infectious and spreads rapidly through society. It is often quite symptomless and might pass unnoticed, but it also causes severe disease, and even death, in a proportion of the population, and our most important task is not to stop spread, which is all but futile, but to concentrate on giving the unfortunate victims optimal care."

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