Very soon, lockdown will be causing more deaths than the virus:

Nice to hear some practical common sense on the topic.

Actually, he poses the questions but he, like you, refuses to put a value on all this in terms of human lives V the economy. I don't expect you'll answer that question so...

...he also failed to ask other relevant questions: how much healthier are we now, as we're breathing cleaner air? Are people not going to A&E really sick or did some people go to A&E for trivial reasons/some people a huge number of times? Did the war do the health of those who lived any harm (no, we were very healthy then)? And, does human sacrifice cure things?  I think you might answer some of these because they're easier...

But, I want to know what each of us is worth - dead or alive.

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I never wanted us to be in this place in the first place - we should have done more to keep the virus out in the first place.

However, we have now got into the place where the supposed cure is worse than the virus itself. This virus kills people in certain groups, chiefly the old and those with other conditions, including type-2 diabetes (which itself is related to obesity).

So we need to shield those who are vulnerable, get the testing and contact tracing ramped up and then to get the economy and society for the rest of us functioning as close to normally as is possible.

I have linked to a variety of articles explaining the overkill in the current position.

Here is a related piece from the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext

"...

In summary, COVID-19 is a disease that is highly infectious and spreads rapidly through society. It is often quite symptomless and might pass unnoticed, but it also causes severe disease, and even death, in a proportion of the population, and our most important task is not to stop spread, which is all but futile, but to concentrate on giving the unfortunate victims optimal care."

Ok, so you accept there will be more deaths. Again, then, how much is a human life worth? How many lives will need to be sacrificed so the economy can get going again? Or (I'd accept this as an answer) if cases take off again would you also lock down again?.

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Ok, so you accept there will be more deaths. Again, then, how much is a human life worth? How many lives will need to be sacrificed so the economy can get going again? Or (I'd accept this as an answer) if cases take off again would you also lock down again?.

That is a pointless question, because the answer is from anywhere on a scale from nothing to priceless - the question is designed to put someone on the spot, rather than to reveal any underlying truth.

Simple question for you - is the life of a 95 year old worth more or less than the life of a 5 year old?

 

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That is a pointless question, because the answer is from anywhere on a scale from nothing to priceless - the question is designed to put someone on the spot, rather than to reveal any underlying truth.

Cop out. Which one is the answer for you, nothing v priceless?

Simple question for you - is the life of a 95 year old worth more or less than the life of a 5 year old?

 

I've thought about this. I think once you start treating a life as of different value to another you are on very problematic path. Humanity has been at different positions down that path over history.

I do also think adult people should have control over their lives and how they end - but that is a very different answer to a very different question.

There, I didn't find that hard to answer, why are you so reticent? Indeed, why will you still not answer my question? Again, how many lives is the economy worth and what value is a life wrt that - worthless v priceless?

I begin to think you think the lockdown wasn't worth it so you must think more lives should have been lost (or you don't understand that the lockdown worked) to save the economy. How many more lives should have been lost?. With no lockdown I see no reason why the virus would not take out 1% of us - that would be several 100K...

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My antibody test results are in! Not the result I was hoping for, but there you go... can't win 'em all!

 

 

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My antibody test results are in! Not the result I was hoping for, but there you go... can't win 'em all!

 

 

Patient	DARREN
Sample Date	13/05/2020
Report Date	14/05/2020

 

SARS-CoV-2 Virus IgG Antibody. Processed on Abbott Architect ci8200 analyser

Test	Results
SARS-CoV-2 IgG	NEGATIVE

That is a pity - so I wonder what you did have.

 

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That is a pity - so I wonder what you did have.

Well, the symptoms were like a mild flu and the lingering cough is what I had with flu the one and only time I had it before... so I suspect it was just a mild flu.

It does mean though that I really don't want to get covid now, as I'm still getting over the last bug!

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I've thought about this. I think once you start treating a life as of different value to another you are on very problematic path. Humanity has been at different positions down that path over history.

But any one of us could be confronted with the situation - the classic example is a sinking ship and you can only rescue one passenger - do you save the child or the elderly adult? We all know the answer to that question, since any sane person would rescue the child first, so we do value a child's life ahead of someone who already has one foot in the grave, whether prepared to openly admit it or not.

 

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With no lockdown I see no reason why the virus would not take out 1% of us - that would be several 100K...

So the only options are lockdown or no lockdown.
We could do most of the distancing without closing half the economy, and bankrupting swathes of small businesses for good.
At the same time been more serious about shielding the elderly who are the only ones actually dying at much above background rate.

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But any one of us could be confronted with the situation - the classic example is a sinking ship and you can only rescue one passenger - do you save the child or the elderly adult? We all know the answer to that question, since any sane person would rescue the child first, so we do value a child's life ahead of someone who already has one foot in the grave, whether prepared to openly admit it or not.

 

You're dodging my question by posing a different hypothetical one...

There is no dilemma atm - it's simply a question of how many deaths you think the economy is (or indeed was, if you think the lockdown was wrong) was worth.

Clearly you think the present 35-50K death wasn't enough as you think the lockdown was wrong? So, (and I wont bother anymore, I don't expect a clear answer) how many death was saving the economy worth?

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Wales has reported 126 new cases and 9 new deaths

Scotland has reported 143 new cases and 46 new deaths

NHS England has announced 186 new hospital deaths down from 207 yesterday

Last Friday. NHS England announced 332 new hospital deaths

So the only options are lockdown or no lockdown.
We could do most of the distancing without closing half the economy, and bankrupting swathes of small businesses for good.
At the same time been more serious about shielding the elderly who are the only ones actually dying at much above background rate.

So now you do think this is (yes, to mainly a unwell section of the population) a deadly virus rather than something that will 'decline rapidly'. I dunno...

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Here, here. 

MM why don’t you tell us. What is your value of a life? All you’ve gone on about is the economy. So let’s have it, what is acceptable to you?

 Where?

My antibody test results are in! Not the result I was hoping for, but there you go... can't win 'em all!

 

 

Patient	DARREN
Sample Date	13/05/2020
Report Date	14/05/2020

 

SARS-CoV-2 Virus IgG Antibody. Processed on Abbott Architect ci8200 analyser

Test	Results
SARS-CoV-2 IgG	NEGATIVE

 

Bugger !

I don't think it's worth me getting one  done as my symptoms weren't even as "good" as yours.

(cough for a few days and feeling generally shite)

 

 

 

 

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But any one of us could be confronted with the situation - the classic example is a sinking ship and you can only rescue one passenger - do you save the child or the elderly adult? We all know the answer to that question, since any sane person would rescue the child first, so we do value a child's life ahead of someone who already has one foot in the grave, whether prepared to openly admit it or not.

 

Its not the same though and you know it. 5 year olds for example have not been hit by this virus any near as bad

A 95 Y/O v a 30-60 Y/O maybe is a better analogy. Even so, I agree with Devonian we should be going down this road at all, but you seem to think it’s OK to.

So for the second time today from me. What ££ value so you put on a life

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Northern Ireland has reported 26 new cases and 15 new deaths

 

I never wanted us to be in this place in the first place - we should have done more to keep the virus out in the first place.

However, we have now got into the place where the supposed cure is worse than the virus itself. This virus kills people in certain groups, chiefly the old and those with other conditions, including type-2 diabetes (which itself is related to obesity).

So we need to shield those who are vulnerable, get the testing and contact tracing ramped up and then to get the economy and society for the rest of us functioning as close to normally as is possible.

I have linked to a variety of articles explaining the overkill in the current position.

Here is a related piece from the Lancet:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31035-7/fulltext

"...

In summary, COVID-19 is a disease that is highly infectious and spreads rapidly through society. It is often quite symptomless and might pass unnoticed, but it also causes severe disease, and even death, in a proportion of the population, and our most important task is not to stop spread, which is all but futile, but to concentrate on giving the unfortunate victims optimal care."

SK, NZ, Slovenia, Greece, Portugal, Australia, Hong Kong...

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Zero covid related deaths reported today in Denmark for the first time since the epidemic began