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Offline Quantum  
#821 Posted : 17 September 2013 22:35:28(UTC)
Quantum

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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Yeah - stuff like that's a pity, but I think Neven is far more respected worldwide than Goddard! Q - I get the same things pass my mind - David Rose gets 150,000 pageviews and my most popular SkS pieces get 20,000. I try to console myself with the notion that the Mail readers are mostly looking at the pictures!

Tabloids: someone fortuitously pointed out this morning: The Sun Says: Muslim women shouldn't wear veils (Page one); for more about what women should wear see The Sun (page three). It's a nasty, spiteful old world out there!


I have another one. Brian Gaze vs James madden. I expect in a couple of weeks the express will be predicting -28C by October the 3rd. Btw SKS is actually a really awesome website, I particularly like how you have basic, intermediate and expert sections. So its not just for the refutation but its also for pure climate education. To be fair though, I think the media storm was worse back in 2008 than it is now, apart from the mail it hasn't really been anywhere else. The telegraph mentioned it, but it was basically just one long quote from the mail; and they made up for that by doing a great piece a few days later. 

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Offline Bill Illis  
#822 Posted : 18 September 2013 00:33:23(UTC)
Bill Illis

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Joined: 19/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 2,667

Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Yeah - stuff like that's a pity, but I think Neven is far more respected worldwide than Goddard! Q - I get the same things pass my mind - David Rose gets 150,000 pageviews and my most popular SkS pieces get 20,000. I try to console myself with the notion that the Mail readers are mostly looking at the pictures!

Tabloids: someone fortuitously pointed out this morning: The Sun Says: Muslim women shouldn't wear veils (Page one); for more about what women should wear see The Sun (page three). It's a nasty, spiteful old world out there!


I have another one. Brian Gaze vs James madden. I expect in a couple of weeks the express will be predicting -28C by October the 3rd. Btw SKS is actually a really awesome website, I particularly like how you have basic, intermediate and expert sections. So its not just for the refutation but its also for pure climate education. To be fair though, I think the media storm was worse back in 2008 than it is now, apart from the mail it hasn't really been anywhere else. The telegraph mentioned it, but it was basically just one long quote from the mail; and they made up for that by doing a great piece a few days later. 



 


Skeptical Science is really good if you like your information distorted.


-------------------


Like where the climate models are right on target so far.


And the 90% of the Warming is Going into the Oceans.


 


SHOW EXTERNAL IMAGES

Online Devonian  
#823 Posted : 18 September 2013 06:40:11(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bill Illis Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Yeah - stuff like that's a pity, but I think Neven is far more respected worldwide than Goddard! Q - I get the same things pass my mind - David Rose gets 150,000 pageviews and my most popular SkS pieces get 20,000. I try to console myself with the notion that the Mail readers are mostly looking at the pictures!

Tabloids: someone fortuitously pointed out this morning: The Sun Says: Muslim women shouldn't wear veils (Page one); for more about what women should wear see The Sun (page three). It's a nasty, spiteful old world out there!


I have another one. Brian Gaze vs James madden. I expect in a couple of weeks the express will be predicting -28C by October the 3rd. Btw SKS is actually a really awesome website, I particularly like how you have basic, intermediate and expert sections. So its not just for the refutation but its also for pure climate education. To be fair though, I think the media storm was worse back in 2008 than it is now, apart from the mail it hasn't really been anywhere else. The telegraph mentioned it, but it was basically just one long quote from the mail; and they made up for that by doing a great piece a few days later. 



 


Skeptical Science is really good if you like your information distorted.


 



Having seen that distorted picture of Dr Jones you posted I think that's rich.

"When it takes nearly 900,000 votes to elect one party’s MP, and just 26,000 for another, you know something is deeply wrong."
The electoral reform society, 14,12,19
Online doctormog  
#824 Posted : 18 September 2013 06:57:41(UTC)
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Any chance of sticking to discussing the state of the Arctic Sea ice (rather than the usual petty squabbling)?

For clarification that is not in direct reply to the above message but rather to the entire irrelevant, seemingly ubiquitous petty name calling that IMO destroys this and many other forums. Smile

Edited by user 18 September 2013 06:59:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Online Devonian  
#825 Posted : 18 September 2013 07:02:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: doctormog Go to Quoted Post
Any chance of sticking to discussing the state of the Arctic Sea ice (rather than the usual petty squabbling)? For clarification that is not in direct reply to the above message but rather to the entire irrelevant, seemingly ubiquitous petty name calling that IMO destroys this and many other forums. Smile


I'd welcome that!

"When it takes nearly 900,000 votes to elect one party’s MP, and just 26,000 for another, you know something is deeply wrong."
The electoral reform society, 14,12,19
Offline John Mason  
#826 Posted : 18 September 2013 07:19:23(UTC)
John Mason

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Just a quick diversion in that I would point out to Bill that the important points we make at SkS are referenced. This means that the reader may follow the links and check out the literature for themselves, and wherever possible we link to full PDF copies of papers. If you think that is distortion, so be it, I suppose.

Now, has minimum been called across the board yet?
Online doctormog  
#827 Posted : 18 September 2013 07:21:57(UTC)
doctormog

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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Now, has minimum been called across the board yet?


I'd say probably rather than definitely.
Offline polarwind  
#828 Posted : 18 September 2013 08:03:53(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Just a quick diversion in that I would point out to Bill that the important points we make at SkS are referenced. This means that the reader may follow the links and check out the literature for themselves, and wherever possible we link to full PDF copies of papers. If you think that is distortion, so be it, I suppose. Now, has minimum been called across the board yet?


Does SkS also reference, contrary, research papers which would actually support some skepticism? - there perhaps lies the nub??

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
Offline John Mason  
#829 Posted : 18 September 2013 10:43:05(UTC)
John Mason

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Yes, if we decide to write about them. There aren't that many though, despite oft-made claims. And we also criticise over-alarmism - such as recent stuff regarding Arctic methane hydrate catastrophism.
Offline Quantum  
#830 Posted : 18 September 2013 19:52:41(UTC)
Quantum

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Posts: 17,861

OK NSDIC press release out.


http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/


Excellent read as always. Ill summarise the most important points below:



  • NW passage did not open this year

  • N passage did

  • Above average September temperatures

  • Climate models predict large year-year variation. 2013 should not be too suprising.

  • Cold tempertures prevalled during the summer over the CAA and greenland (no mention of any records though)

  • SSTs above average

  • Record antartic sea ice

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Offline John Mason  
#831 Posted : 18 September 2013 20:30:06(UTC)
John Mason

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Context often helps!
Offline Quantum  
#832 Posted : 18 September 2013 20:35:13(UTC)
Quantum

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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Context often helps!


Sorry, it was just a summary 


I suggest everyone read the press release for themseleves. I personally look forward to them every month. 

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Offline polarwind  
#833 Posted : 19 September 2013 08:28:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post
Yes, if we decide to write about them. There aren't that many though, despite oft-made claims. And we also criticise over-alarmism - such as recent stuff regarding Arctic methane hydrate catastrophism.


I have for a long time posted links for new research which would question high senstivity to CO2 doubling and on this issue alone, there have been several pieces of research only recently published (see Judith Curry's blog).


Have SkS contributors, yet written about the questions raised on the subject of sensitivity? Or indeed, thought about writing a piece on the recent research?

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
Offline John Mason  
#834 Posted : 19 September 2013 09:47:23(UTC)
John Mason

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Posts: 3,447

Lots of articles on sensitivity and the attendant uncertainties - go and take a look!
Offline Quantum  
#835 Posted : 19 September 2013 15:15:30(UTC)
Quantum

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Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 17,861

Snow in the arctic is now above average, unlike last year where it was still below. In fact there is some snow unusually far south in parts of canada, russia and even iceland. This may interest winter forecastors more than sea ice watchers. 

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Offline polarwind  
#836 Posted : 19 September 2013 16:36:00(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Snow in the arctic is now above average, unlike last year where it was still below. In fact there is some snow unusually far south in parts of canada, russia and even iceland. This may interest winter forecastors more than sea ice watchers. 


I made the same point four days ago - here   - it's as though the usual stage of snow cover build up along Arctic coastal lands has been skipped.

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
beaufort  
#837 Posted : 19 September 2013 17:04:43(UTC)
Guest

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You get snow on the ice cap in Iceland all year.

Offline nsrobins  
#838 Posted : 19 September 2013 17:14:04(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Snow in the arctic is now above average, unlike last year where it was still below. In fact there is some snow unusually far south in parts of canada, russia and even iceland. This may interest winter forecastors more than sea ice watchers. 



The snow cover in central Canada probably won't interest sea ice watchers - it's over a thousand miles away LOL.


Sorry for what may sound like a really stupid question. Most of the south end of Portsea Island is at or even just below sea level. The average high tide mark on the sea wall in Old Portsmouth has been in the same position for over three hundred years. The stone built quay is still being used today. If, year on year, temperatures are rising along with sea levels, why is most of Portsmouth not under water?

Neil
Wickham, Hampshire 25m ASL (on river)
Stormchaser, Member TORRO
Online Devonian  
#839 Posted : 19 September 2013 17:35:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: nsrobins Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Snow in the arctic is now above average, unlike last year where it was still below. In fact there is some snow unusually far south in parts of canada, russia and even iceland. This may interest winter forecastors more than sea ice watchers. 



The snow cover in central Canada probably won't interest sea ice watchers - it's over a thousand miles away LOL.


Sorry for what may sound like a really stupid question. Most of the south end of Portsea Island is at or even just below sea level. The average high tide mark on the sea wall in Old Portsmouth has been in the same position for over three hundred years. The stone built quay is still being used today. If, year on year, temperatures are rising along with sea levels, why is most of Portsmouth not under water?



Isn't SE England still sinking, post ice age? I can't remember the rate but maybe the sinking is cancelling out the rise?


I think it's also the case the sea level doesn't rise at the same rate everywhere. Or, indeed that the sea level is the same everywhere?

"When it takes nearly 900,000 votes to elect one party’s MP, and just 26,000 for another, you know something is deeply wrong."
The electoral reform society, 14,12,19
Online doctormog  
#840 Posted : 19 September 2013 17:38:13(UTC)
doctormog

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Posts: 70,335

Originally Posted by: nsrobins Go to Quoted Post
<p>
Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post
</p>
<p>Snow in the arctic is now above average, unlike last year where it was still below. In fact there is some snow unusually far south in parts of canada, russia and even iceland. This may interest winter forecastors more than sea ice watchers.&nbsp;</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The snow cover in central Canada probably won't interest sea ice watchers - it's over a thousand miles away LOL.</p>
<p>Sorry for what may sound like a really stupid question. Most of the south end of Portsea Island is at or even just below sea level. The average high tide mark on the sea wall in Old Portsmouth has been in the same position for over three hundred years. The stone built quay is still being used today. If, year on year, temperatures are rising along with sea levels, why is most of Portsmouth not under water?</p>


Bad luck? Flapper

Seriously though, I think there are regional variations in the overall rate of sea level rises. Perhaps the UK waters, or at least some of them have been effected to a lesser extent (so far)? That's just a guess though. I belie pave the data are out there, including global maps but I haven't looked at them before writing this.

I would have thought that the gradual lowering of land mass in the south may have made a difference too but perhaps these are all within the range which would be masked by large changes associated with tidal flows or storm surges etc. ?

Edit: Peter wouldn't the land mass in the south sinking actually exacerbate the effects of sea level rises?
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