The Weather Outlook

Remove ads from site

TomC
  • TomC
  • Advanced Member
13 November 2010 14:02:21

I have respect for Lomborg, there is a review of his new book here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/30/bjorn-lomborg-climate-change-u-turn

To be fair to him I don't think he has ever disputed the science of man made global warming but he has always analysed the political response to it where his expertise is to be found. Provided he bases his policy discussion on the mainstream science then I have no problem.

Gray-Wolf
13 November 2010 15:50:19

I saw an article where Me L. was putting as much distance between him and the septic fringe over summer. I must agree he does have some reasonable notions on how to 'move forward' in living with our warming (which we'd need to do even if we went to zero emissions overnight) and little ways to offset our biggest thermal inputs (U.H.I.'s).


Koyaanisqatsi

ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

Gandalf The White
13 November 2010 19:51:23

Cool It
Bjorn Lomborg with a more rational approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPUcfQS-slo

Robertski wrote:

 

Bjorn Lomborg is associate professor of statistics in the Department of Political Science at the University of Aarhus, Denmark.

Clearly an expert on climate science.

Well done Four.

Oh, and how predictable Robert. 

Gandalf The White wrote:

yes but it is not just Bjorn, is it?. Your response is equaly predictable..

four wrote:

Robert, I apologise.

That is a very good video and contains some very sensible observations.

 

As someone on the video says, to get attention you need a strong message.   I guess that means potentially overplaying the position, or at least playing it to its fullest extent.

Quite clearly Lomborg does accept that we are altering the climate but he is critical of the actions being taken so far.  I would agree with that completely.  As he says, using low-energy light bulbs and driving around in hybrids won't deal with the problem.

If Lomborg reflects your views then we are in material agreement and I am left wondering why you post so much that questions global warming?


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
13 November 2010 22:49:57

Careful:
I did find it on WUWT


Gandalf The White
14 November 2010 12:37:04

Careful:
I did find it on WUWT

four wrote:

Yes, I am amazed at that - was it a mistake by Watts, I wonder?

 

Anyway, at least I am prepared to apologise when I misinterpret something....


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Gandalf The White
14 November 2010 18:38:30

Careful:
I did find it on WUWT

four wrote:

 

Here's another article by Lomborg, headlined "Geoengineering: A Quick Clean Fix?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2030804,00.html

 

There's also a link at the bottom to a 3 minute interview on the Time site.

 

Actually I think he talks a lot of sense, but without doubt he accepts that:

  • there is climate change,
  • it is a problem and
  • we should have been tackling it by now and need to tackle it

There you go Four, we seem to have agreement on a useful source.

 


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Robertski
14 November 2010 20:54:06

Good graphs here showing past warming with some commentary...,.

 

Full article here.....

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/best-shot

The best shot?

UPDATE: David MacKay's letter is now up in a separate post here

 

Some weeks ago I wrote an article for The Times about why I no longer find persuasive the IPCC's arguments that today's climate change is unprecedented, fast and dangerous.

I was delighted to receive a long and courteous letter from David MacKay, the chief scientific advisor to Britain's Department of Energy and Climate Change. With his permission I am publishing my reply to that letter. I would put his letter here too (again he agrees), but I only have a hard copy of it, so that will have to follow when he has time to send me a soft version.Now done.

The remarkable thing about this exchange is that far from weakening my doubts about the IPCC case, it has strengthened them. The letter explains why. Essentially, I have realised that almost the only weapons left in the alarm locker are the retreat of the Arctic sea ice and an event that happened 55m years ago and was probably not caused by CO2 at all. Everything else -- the CO2-temperature correlation in the Antarctic ice core, the hockey stick, storm frequency, phenology, etc etc -- no longer supports the argument that something unprecedented in magnitude or rate is happening. Remarkable.

Here is my letter:

 

Dear David

I am honoured that you liked my book and I liked yours very much indeed: a brilliant and necessary contribution to the debate. Though it arrived late in my writing process, I managed to squeeze in several references to it in the penultimate chapter of mine.

Thank you for taking the trouble to give such a detailed reply to my Times article – much longer than the constraints of the Times op-ed page allowed for me! I shall now indulge in a longer reply. It is certainly nice that the political `climate’ (sic) now allows articles like mine to receive serious replies, rather than accusations of heresy or sin or threats of prosecution as a criminal against humanity. I appreciate that very much. I surmise from your covering note that perhaps your letter is circulated more widely among DECC colleagues and I would be glad for you to circulate this reply, not least to the secretary of state who showed you my article. I shall post this letter on my blog.

I am surprised to find that I agree with much of your letter, but it changes almost none of my conclusions. How can this be? The gap between the science and how it has been presented is huge. This is as much the fault of bodies like the Royal Society, which should have been a brake on politically inspired extreme statements but was not, as it is of the media. You say scientists know how big the uncertainties are and that the failure to ensure that uncertainties are reported has contributed to the problem. I agree and I wish that the science establishment had paid this issue more attention. They allowed and encouraged their spokesmen to peddle the very opposite impression.

Consider this statement for example: `Earth's climate can only be stabilized by bringing carbon dioxide emissions under control in the twenty-first century.’ That is the opening sentence of a paper in Nature Geoscience last month.  It is shocking that it got past the editors and reviewers. After 4 billion years of climatic volatility, much of it not caused by CO2 but by orbital variations, solar cycles and so on, how on earth are we to `stabilise’ earth’s climate by adjusting just one forcing factor? I refuse to accept that the climate could ever be stabilised, let alone by adjusting one factor. That sentence has no place in a scientific journal.

Taking your points in turn, then:

You say most climate scientists are nicer than their caricature on the web. I agree, but so are most sceptics. The image of the politicised, right-wing, anti-science zealot fits some, of course, just as the reverse fits Jim Hansen, Bob Ward and Joe Romm, but the ones whose work I have got to know, such as Andrew Montford and Steve McIntyre are quite different.  The polarisation of this issue is a real problem. I learned from writing about the nature-nurture debate that arguments get polarised because people only read their friends’ caricatures of their opponents’ works; it is vital that we all read all sides of the argument.

Next you criticise my argument that current warming is not `unprecedented’ by reference to the Arctic sea ice graph. But this only goes back to 1979! Blackpool’s Football League table position is unprecedented since 1979. In a brief period of warming, of course the warming is unprecedented. You will know the ample anecdotal evidence that Arctic sea ice retreated just as much in the 1920s and 1930s: remember `Warming island’ for example. There is also good evidence from wave-made beaches and driftwood in Northern Greenland of probably ice-free summer months in the Arctic 7,000 years ago. A study published in the journal Quaternary Research of sea sediment cores in the Chukchi Sea shelf in the Arctic Ocean concluded that `during the middle Holocene the August sea surface temperature fluctuated by 5°C and was 3-7°C warmer than it is today'. (Incidentally, I am keen to see a proper test of the hypothesis that black carbon is the main cause of the Arctic sea ice summer retreat of recent years and that cleaning up Chinese coal power stations will reverse the trend. The argument seems quite plausible – and it might explain why Antarctic sea ice has been expanding during the same period --  but it needs a test.)

To be honest, whenever that sea-ice graph is used as an argument, I become a little bit more sceptical. If that is the best evidence of something unprecedented, then the case must be weaker than I thought. It is a change that is not even likely to threaten human or animal livelihoods: even with a total late-summer melt (I presume you do not belong to the school of thought that the ice could fail to reform in winter), there is no great albedo feedback at such latitudes because of the angle of the sun in August, and polar bears will expand their range further north or will survive ice-free summer months onshore as they do already in Hudson’s Bay, on Wrangel island and parts of Svalbard (where one once walked round my tent while I slept).

Then you say that if I mean `not unprecedented on 100m year timescales’... But those are not the only two options! I mean not unprecedented in centuries and millennia, ie in human history. It is hugely relevant whether the warming of 1910-40 was as fast as 1980-2010 (it was). It is hugely relevant if the climate was as warm in 1100 AD as now (it probably was) both in attributing cause and in making conclusions about sensitivity.

You will have seen this graph, one of many now making it amply clear that the warmth of the Holocene optimum, peaking about 7,000 years ago, was both global in extent and considerably warmer than today:

And this:


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
14 November 2010 21:03:37

Perceptive -


far from weakening my doubts about the IPCC case, it has strengthened them. The letter explains why. Essentially, I have realised that almost the only weapons left in the alarm locker are the retreat of the Arctic sea ice and an event that happened 55m years ago and was probably not caused by CO2 at all. Everything else -- the CO2-temperature correlation in the Antarctic ice core, the hockey stick, storm frequency, phenology, etc etc -- no longer supports the argument that something unprecedented in magnitude or rate is happening.


Gandalf The White
14 November 2010 21:22:31

Just extracting one part of that long letter, for now:

You say most climate scientists are nicer than their caricature on the web. I agree, but so are most sceptics. The image of the politicised, right-wing, anti-science zealot fits some, of course, just as the reverse fits Jim Hansen, Bob Ward and Joe Romm, but the ones whose work I have got to know, such as Andrew Montford and Steve McIntyre are quite different.  The polarisation of this issue is a real problem. I learned from writing about the nature-nurture debate that arguments get polarised because people only read their friends’ caricatures of their opponents’ works; it is vital that we all read all sides of the argument.

 

I wonder if you and Four and Solar Cycles might actually take that on board before you leap to unthinking dismissal of all AGW.

As you said to me, Robert, it is your behaviour that is helping to create the polarisation here.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
14 November 2010 23:13:06

Much of the mainstream media is in the grip of environmental political correctness, so every possible opportunity needs to be taken to counter the spin and manipulation of science we are dealt from there.


Gray-Wolf
16 November 2010 12:13:05

Here's a nice record for the record;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuV0crHDkmY

this was back in 1956.........


Koyaanisqatsi

ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

AIMSIR
19 November 2010 21:22:37

Here's a nice record for the record;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuV0crHDkmY

this was back in 1956.........

Gray-Wolf wrote:

An interesting listen grey Wolf.Some good points made for and against the single factor of CO2 alone induced warming.

Still it was great to hear what people though back then.

Off the' record' is that guy a' spin' doctor.

Essan
19 November 2010 22:00:42

Much of the mainstream media is in the grip of environmental political correctness, so every possible opportunity needs to be taken to counter the spin and manipulation of science we are dealt from there.

four wrote:

Coudn't agree more!

Sadly we're not doing a very job of it though.

And as Roger Peilke Sr rightly pointed out:

Overstatements on all sides of this issue are what is preventing an effective scientific discourse on this subject.

 


Andy

Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl

Weather & Earth Science News 

Look in the doubt we've wallowed, look at the leaders we've followed, look at the lies we've swallowed, and I don't want to hear no more

AIMSIR
20 November 2010 00:03:36

Much of the mainstream media is in the grip of environmental political correctness, so every possible opportunity needs to be taken to counter the spin and manipulation of science we are dealt from there.

Essan wrote:

Coudn't agree more!

Sadly we're not doing a very job of it though.

And as Roger Peilke Sr rightly pointed out:

Overstatements on all sides of this issue are what is preventing an effective scientific discourse on this subject.

 

four wrote:

Other than the scientific fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.There would not be much to write about unless it was put onto the front page and flogged to death as a destroyer of worlds.

We are still waiting for conclusive proof of it's stand alone efficienty as the be all and end all of global warming with disregard to natural influences.

I do agree with your propositions as previously posted on local AW still. btw.

I also wonder are there any areas where there is local anthropogenetic cooling?.

Or is that not mainstream at the moment?.

bowser
20 November 2010 17:18:39

Hmmmm, don't know too much on the subject, but thought this was interesting anyway: http://www.infowars.com/climategate-is-still-the-issue/

Ulric
20 November 2010 18:14:44

There are some odd links posted here from time to time but infowars really is the home of tinfoil hattery!


"Et quidem de Sclavorum gente, quae vobis valde imminet, et affligor vehementer et conturbor. Affligor in his quae jam in vobis patior; conturbor, quia per Istriae aditum jam ad Italiam intrare coeperunt." Pope Gregory I, 600AD
bowser
20 November 2010 18:23:03

There are some odd links posted here from time to time but infowars really is the home of tinfoil hattery!

Ulric wrote:

The platform is irrelevant, what about the content?

Are these views never on mainstream media because they are untrue or because vested interests who control the main levers of mainstream media don't like them?

 

Gandalf The White
20 November 2010 18:42:22

There are some odd links posted here from time to time but infowars really is the home of tinfoil hattery!

bowser wrote:

The platform is irrelevant, what about the content?

Are these views never on mainstream media because they are untrue or because vested interests who control the main levers of mainstream media don't like them?

 

Ulric wrote:

Well I am afraid I lost interest and respect for the author at this point:

Climategate ringleader and CRU head Phil Jones

 

There's scarcely any point in taking someone seriously if that is the standard.

 

 


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
20 November 2010 19:21:00

You stopped just at the point it starts to get difficult to explain away.


Essan
20 November 2010 20:09:00

You stopped just at the point it starts to get difficult to explain away.

four wrote:

On the contrary, he stopped exactly at the point it was obvious a tinfoil hat was needed.......


Andy

Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl

Weather & Earth Science News 

Look in the doubt we've wallowed, look at the leaders we've followed, look at the lies we've swallowed, and I don't want to hear no more

Essan
20 November 2010 20:15:10

I also wonder are there any areas where there is local anthropogenetic cooling?.

AIMSIR wrote:

It's complicated, but yes

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/15/5326.full

http://www.suite101.com/content/environmental-impact-of-asian-brown-cloud-a81477


Andy

Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl

Weather & Earth Science News 

Look in the doubt we've wallowed, look at the leaders we've followed, look at the lies we've swallowed, and I don't want to hear no more

Solar Cycles
20 November 2010 20:23:28

There are some odd links posted here from time to time but infowars really is the home of tinfoil hattery!

Ulric wrote:

The source is irrelevant, the content is sound. The only ones needing a tinfoil hat, are those with their ideological agendas nailed to the mast! Oh I forgot I need to put a 

AIMSIR
20 November 2010 20:28:06

I also wonder are there any areas where there is local anthropogenetic cooling?.

Essan wrote:

It's complicated, but yes

http://www.pnas.org/content/102/15/5326.full

http://www.suite101.com/content/environmental-impact-of-asian-brown-cloud-a81477

AIMSIR wrote:

Well done ,I have to say.Essan.

cheers.

Gandalf The White
20 November 2010 22:54:05

There are some odd links posted here from time to time but infowars really is the home of tinfoil hattery!

Solar Cycles wrote:

The source is irrelevant, the content is sound. The only ones needing a tinfoil hat, are those with their ideological agendas nailed to the mast! Oh I forgot I need to put a 

Ulric wrote:

The source is irrelevant.  The language chosen displays a clear lack of respect and/or a clear sceptic agenda.  Sorry, but if someone has to resort to unnecessary rudeness then I am not interested.

Completely unnecessary and exactly why sceptics lose any moral high ground.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Gandalf The White
20 November 2010 22:55:38

You stopped just at the point it starts to get difficult to explain away.

four wrote:

No Four, I stopped at exactly the point I said that I stopped for the reason that I stated....

I really don't need you making weak attempts to second guess my motives thank you.  Play nicely or go and play somewhere else.

Childish one-liners are indicative that you have nothing worthwhile to contribute here. 

 


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Remove ads from site