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lanky
18 February 2025 08:49:20

Thanks. That leaves me wondering if Lamb could have made a mistake with 19/1/1963, either regarding the precise date or - assuming originally hand-written log-books - maybe -1.1 could have been misread as -7.1 or vice versa.

Originally Posted by: jhall 

I have had a look at the Met Office daily maxima for the UK in 5km grid squares which goes back to 1960 and did some painting in Excel

The charts for 19 and 24 Jan 1963 are shown below

UserPostedImage

Clearly 19 Jan 1963 cannot be a record breaker for lowest daytime max. The lowest max in the winter of 1962/3 was 24 Jan and was around -5C for much of the South East.

The curious thing is the 19th Jan synoptics show a small depression off the top of Cornwall and a strong SE wind covering much of Southern England and S Wales and conducive to blizzard conditions whereas the 24 Jan synoptics show a high pressure cell right overhead and calm conditions. Also the temperature profile for 19 Jan is unusual for winter showing the lowest temperatures in SW England and also S and Mid Wales and as low as -6C in one or two areas.I am wondering whether these reports from HH Lamb and Trevor Harley which are referencing SE England should be referring to SW England instead


Martin

Richmond, Surrey

DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
18 February 2025 09:00:22

With regard to February 1991 in his "The Essex Weather Book" Ian Currie wrote "..and on one day the temperature  failed to climb above -5C".

That was the occasion of the famed British Rail "the wrong type of snow" comment due to the salt being unable to thaw it.

Originally Posted by: fairweather 

As it was reported in Kent where I lived at the time, the problem was more that the low temps had produced particularly fine powdery snow which was sucked into the air intakes of the electric motors of the trains. As the SE network has third-rail electrification, the air intakes and motors are mounted low and so close to the ground in prime position to be affected.


War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

jhall
  • jhall
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
18 February 2025 10:08:36

Note that Dec 1981 struggles to get on the list but it was a very snowy period for SE and E fantastic and special 

The point really is that uppers were never  that cold but just enough with the cooler seas at that time.

I guess if that set up existed today with warmer seas it would be mainly rain.

11th Dec 1981 is a good example of this

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/reanalysis.aspx 

Originally Posted by: Polar Low 

Some places had exceptionally low minima both in that month and in January 1982. I think January 1982 had some very low maxima as well, and 13 Jan 1982 makes it onto the list of coldest days at Oxford (see my earlier post).

One other thought: I think the 2018 Beast might well have made it onto the list had it occurred six weeks earlier, in mid-January. As it was, the maxima were exceptionally low for the end of February and beginning of March.


Cranleigh, Surrey
Hungry Tiger
18 February 2025 11:27:19
It would be well worth looking at February 1895. That was the second coldest February on record. I'm surprised it wasn't the coldest as it was dominated by a cold spell which was in a complete class of its own and I know many places in England has maximum below -10C. Most of East Anglia had maximum widely between -5c  and -9C for St least a week on consecutive days.    🙂 
Gavin S. FRmetS.

TWO Moderator.

Contact the TWO team - [email protected]

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Retron
18 February 2025 11:41:51

It would be well worth looking at February 1895.

Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 

Here's a photo of the first Sheppey bridge during that month. Looks like the sea froze over, and how!

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/1895.jpg 

UserPostedImage


Leysdown, north Kent
fairweather
18 February 2025 11:55:33

As it was reported in Kent where I lived at the time, the problem was more that the low temps had produced particularly fine powdery snow which was sucked into the air intakes of the electric motors of the trains. As the SE network has third-rail electrification, the air intakes and motors are mounted low and so close to the ground in prime position to be affected.

Originally Posted by: DEW 

Yes, it was widely mis-reported in various ways - even then!


S.Essex, 42m ASL
lanky
18 February 2025 12:08:17

As it was reported in Kent where I lived at the time, the problem was more that the low temps had produced particularly fine powdery snow which was sucked into the air intakes of the electric motors of the trains. As the SE network has third-rail electrification, the air intakes and motors are mounted low and so close to the ground in prime position to be affected.

Originally Posted by: DEW 

I remember it well. It was the automatic doors that caused the problem on my train. The powdery snow getting into the mechanism signalled the doors weren't closed and hence the train couldn't start. At each stop the guard had to get out and manually force each set if doors shut. My 20 minute journey to work  from Richmond to Waterloo at 07:20 gave up the ghost at Clapham Junction at 11:30


Martin

Richmond, Surrey

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18 February 2025 15:35:26

Yes, it was widely mis-reported in various ways - even then!

Originally Posted by: fairweather 

Which is mis-reported, the light fluffy snow getting into the electrics, Or the salt failing to do its job?

As for the first, this effect also affected Eurostar

https://web.archive.org/web/20110612232005/http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6963830.ece 

but salt will melt ice down to the eutectic point of -21C - though in practice you wouldn't want to use that much salt (23%). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system 

A 10% salt solution freezes at -6C which should have been achievable

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/explore/ice/background/allAboutWater/ 


War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

jhall
  • jhall
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18 February 2025 16:36:09

It would be well worth looking at February 1895. That was the second coldest February on record. I'm surprised it wasn't the coldest as it was dominated by a cold spell which was in a complete class of its own and I know many places in England has maximum below -10C. Most of East Anglia had maximum widely between -5c  and -9C for St least a week on consecutive days.    🙂 

Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger 

I was surprised that the month didn't show up either in Lamb's list or in the coldest days at Reading or Oxford. When I have a moment I''ll have a look in Symons' Meteorological Magazine for March 1895 to see what I can dig out about Feb 1895: 

https://digital.nmla.metoffice.gov.uk/IO_11809e39-c3c9-43dd-9a75-f2a57d2f6fbb/ 

(The Met Office's digital archive is a godsend that deserves to be better known.)

Update: There was  a disappointing lack of relevant data. Most of the temperature data given is for minima , some of which were very low, or for daily mean temperatures. The small amount of maximum temp. data I could unearth isn't that startling. Garstang in Lancashire had a max of 22F (between -5 and -6C) on the 6th, and Loughborough in Leicestershire had maxima of 26F (between -3 and -4C) on both the 8th and 9th. That doesn't seem to fit in with the values that you've quoted. Where did you get them from, and are you sure that they were maxima rather than daily means?

Added later: I've found the Daily Weather Reports for Feb 1895 on the Met Office website:

https://digital.nmla.metoffice.gov.uk/IO_6b0c337c-b082-4f3a-906c-db6e2b85f9aa/ 

Unfortunately most of the data is in manuscript and it's been photocopied, so it isn't as easily legible as one would like. But there's at awful lot of data there, not just for UK stations but for ones on the continent too. I didn't look beyond the 9th, and the lowest max that I spotted was for Aberdeen at 19F (-7C) - remarkable as the east wind had to cross the North Sea.


Cranleigh, Surrey
jhall
  • jhall
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
19 February 2025 09:47:47
I've just had a look to see what Wikipedia's article on the 1894-5 winter has to say:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_1894%E2%80%9395_in_the_United_Kingdom 

The only mention of daily maxima is this: "Coldest daily CET maximum: −4.5 °C or 23.9 °F 6 February". At least one of the three stations averaged to derive the CET figure must have had a lower value than that, but even so though very cold it doesn't seem to be truly exceptional.


Cranleigh, Surrey
fairweather
19 February 2025 16:50:54

Which is mis-reported, the light fluffy snow getting into the electrics, Or the salt failing to do its job?

As for the first, this effect also affected Eurostar

https://web.archive.org/web/20110612232005/http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article6963830.ece 

but salt will melt ice down to the eutectic point of -21C - though in practice you wouldn't want to use that much salt (23%). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutectic_system 

A 10% salt solution freezes at -6C which should have been achievable

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/education/explore/ice/background/allAboutWater/ 

Originally Posted by: DEW 

The salt in my view despite Ian Currie's book quoting it in the book!


S.Essex, 42m ASL
Bertwhistle
19 February 2025 19:03:06
The incredibly low temperatures in parts of central England early winter 1981 (ie still in the first half of December) included very low maxima, below the suggested lowest possible of -10°C . I think Shawbury in Shropshire only reached something like -13°C on 12th December but as a non-official station Newport's -11 on 11th January 1982 is listed on MetO.

Shawbury was photographed in thick freezing fog on that day after fresh snow and sheltered from the scathing easterly that presaged the snow over the S UK on 13th. That night the same location broke the December minimum record, -25.2°C. Imagine that- less than 2 weeks out of November.


Bertie, Itchen Valley.

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jhall
  • jhall
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19 February 2025 20:54:24

The incredibly low temperatures in parts of central England early winter 1981 (ie still in the first half of December) included very low maxima, below the suggested lowest possible of -10°C . I think Shawbury in Shropshire only reached something like -13°C on 12th December but as a non-official station Newport's -11 on 11th January 1982 is listed on MetO.

Shawbury was photographed in thick freezing fog on that day after fresh snow and sheltered from the scathing easterly that presaged the snow over the S UK on 13th. That night the same location broke the December minimum record, -25.2°C. Imagine that- less than 2 weeks out of November.

Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle 

Those are certainly very impressively low maxima. I remembered that there had been some very low maxima in Jan 82, but had thought that Dec 81 was notable mainly for some very low minima. I did cover myself in my original post by saying that the data suggested that "the lowest possible maximum in SE England is close to -10C", though, and Newport and Shawbury are well outside that region. In Scotland at places like Braemar and Altnaharra ISTR that even lower maxima have occurred. 


Cranleigh, Surrey
lanky
20 February 2025 12:39:04
These are all the days when the maximum temperature at my local site (Kew Gardens) was -3C or below since 1881

These come from the Met Office MIDAS database of digitised station records

https://data.ceda.ac.uk/badc/ukmo-midas-open/data/uk-daily-temperature-obs/dataset-version-202407 

It seems that for this Station it is extremely difficult to get a daytime max below -6C as the lowest in the last 144 years has been -5.8C (twice)

As this Station is only about  8 miles outside central London I would expect other SE maxima (say in Hampshire or Oxfordshire) to be a few degrees lower that these but I suspect my pecking order is going to be correct for this date range

UserPostedImage


Martin

Richmond, Surrey

Retron
20 February 2025 13:25:32

These are all the days when the maximum temperature at my local site (Kew Gardens) was -3C or below since 1881

These come from the Met Office MIDAS database of digitised station records

https://data.ceda.ac.uk/badc/ukmo-midas-open/data/uk-daily-temperature-obs/dataset-version-202407 

Originally Posted by: lanky 

What a superb resource! I had no idea that there was a free archive of station data like that, even including ones such as the short-lived Sittingbourne station in the 1960s. Happily, that includes 1963, so at long last I can see what the last legendary winter looked like in my locality. (Sittingbourne is a few miles inland from here, but won't be greatly different - it's usually only a degree or two different to here).

And from a quick look, there were 11 ice days in January 63, 4 more in February and none in March. There was a run of 8 ice days in a row, and a 3-day period with lows in negative double digits, peaking at -13.9.

That means that the Feb 2018 "Beast" (which had a max of -1.2 here on the 2nd March, and a min of -14.8 on the morning of the 28th February) was not only the coldest late Feb/early March of my lifetime, but for decades before... truly remarkable.

The other thing that's of note in 63 was when the cold spell ended - at the end of February Sittingbourne reported a run of days a few degrees above freezing, but still -9 to -7 at night, followed in early March by days of +6 to +8, but still between -7 and -5 at night. It suggests the cold air took some shifting, but even back then the strength of the sun caused significant warming by day.

EDIT: And I can only dream of a summer like the one that followed. The absolute max was just 24.4, and temperatures didn't regularly reach 20 until late July. By mid-August they were below 20 generally. Only three days of the whole summer reached 23C!

Contrast that with last summer, regarded as mediocre on here. Temperatures were reliably above 20 by late June and stayed that way until mid-September. There were 20 days above 25C (let alone 23C). That's an incredible warming - I've certainly noticed it since the 80s, but the 60s look to make the 80s seem positively tropical!


Leysdown, north Kent
jhall
  • jhall
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
20 February 2025 16:46:35

These are all the days when the maximum temperature at my local site (Kew Gardens) was -3C or below since 1881

These come from the Met Office MIDAS database of digitised station records

https://data.ceda.ac.uk/badc/ukmo-midas-open/data/uk-daily-temperature-obs/dataset-version-202407 

It seems that for this Station it is extremely difficult to get a daytime max below -6C as the lowest in the last 144 years has been -5.8C (twice)

As this Station is only about  8 miles outside central London I would expect other SE maxima (say in Hampshire or Oxfordshire) to be a few degrees lower that these but I suspect my pecking order is going to be correct for this date range

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: lanky 

Thanks. I suppose any NE wind has to cross central London to reach you and even a straight easterly has to cross the southern suburbs. Even allowing for the relative coldness of the 1890s, the number of entries from that decade (and not just from 1895) is striking. It makes me wonder if something changed some time around 1900, whether a switch from a Glaisher to a Stevenson screen, changes in the immediate neighbourhood of the screen, or the Kew area becoming more urbanised.


Cranleigh, Surrey
lanky
20 February 2025 16:58:58

Thanks. I suppose any NE wind has to cross central London to reach you and even a straight easterly has to cross the southern suburbs. Even allowing for the relative coldness of the 1890s, the number of entries from that decade (and not just from 1895) is striking. It makes me wonder if something changed some time around 1900, whether a switch from a Glaisher to a Stevenson screen, changes in the immediate neighbourhood of the screen, or the Kew area becoming more urbanised.

Originally Posted by: jhall 

Don't know the history of that weather station so I couldn't say, but I know the period 1880-1900 was a very cold one and regarded as the end of the LIA. The area did become somewhat more urbanised in the early 1900's but the actual weather station is nowhere near any large buildings being right in the middle of the Botanical Gardens

If I have time I might look at another London/SE site on MIDAS with a long history like Kew and try and do a correlation exercise


Martin

Richmond, Surrey

DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
20 February 2025 17:16:11

These are all the days when the maximum temperature at my local site (Kew Gardens) was -3C or below since 1881

These come from the Met Office MIDAS database of digitised station records

https://data.ceda.ac.uk/badc/ukmo-midas-open/data/uk-daily-temperature-obs/dataset-version-202407 

It seems that for this Station it is extremely difficult to get a daytime max below -6C as the lowest in the last 144 years has been -5.8C (twice)

As this Station is only about  8 miles outside central London I would expect other SE maxima (say in Hampshire or Oxfordshire) to be a few degrees lower that these but I suspect my pecking order is going to be correct for this date range

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: lanky 

Who would have predicted that neither 1947 or 1963 appear in this list?


War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

Retron
20 February 2025 18:04:46
That data set mentioned earlier is fascinating, as it has long-lasting records for Faversham, i.e. Brogdale, a station a few miles to the south of here (but seemingly more "continental" than Sittingbourne). Those records go from the 50s up to 2023, and I daresay newer data will appear in due course.

I looked up 1987, of course, as that was the humdinger from my childhood. The lowest max was "only" -5.8, with -4.1 on the day before and the day after... a very impressive 3-day combination, but not as low as further inland (I suspect the snow would have had something to do with that too, as my gran used to say it warms up when it snows.)

The really interesting bit is the absolute low in 1987 was -14.1 - which means the Beast of 2018, at -14.2 there just pipped it. Imagine that - colder than 1987! The previous year had a lower absolute max, in the remarkable February of 1986 it reached -15.1 at Brogdale. The grass lows were better in the 80s spells too: -19 in 1986, a staggering -22 in 1987, compared with "just" -13.6 in 2018... yes, the grass min was higher than the air min in that particular spell! The difference, of course, is that there hadn't been days of snow on the ground beforehand, so some warmth from deeper down would have had an effect.


Leysdown, north Kent
jhall
  • jhall
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
20 February 2025 18:37:05

Don't know the history of that weather station so I couldn't say, but I know the period 1880-1900 was a very cold one and regarded as the end of the LIA. The area did become somewhat more urbanised in the early 1900's but the actual weather station is nowhere near any large buildings being right in the middle of the Botanical Gardens

If I have time I might look at another London/SE site on MIDAS with a long history like Kew and try and do a correlation exercise

Originally Posted by: lanky 

Greenwich might be a good one to look at. And Hampstead could be another if it's in the MIDAS dataset.


Cranleigh, Surrey
Hungry Tiger
21 February 2025 11:12:00

What a superb resource! I had no idea that there was a free archive of station data like that, even including ones such as the short-lived Sittingbourne station in the 1960s. Happily, that includes 1963, so at long last I can see what the last legendary winter looked like in my locality. (Sittingbourne is a few miles inland from here, but won't be greatly different - it's usually only a degree or two different to here).

And from a quick look, there were 11 ice days in January 63, 4 more in February and none in March. There was a run of 8 ice days in a row, and a 3-day period with lows in negative double digits, peaking at -13.9.

That means that the Feb 2018 "Beast" (which had a max of -1.2 here on the 2nd March, and a min of -14.8 on the morning of the 28th February) was not only the coldest late Feb/early March of my lifetime, but for decades before... truly remarkable.

The other thing that's of note in 63 was when the cold spell ended - at the end of February Sittingbourne reported a run of days a few degrees above freezing, but still -9 to -7 at night, followed in early March by days of +6 to +8, but still between -7 and -5 at night. It suggests the cold air took some shifting, but even back then the strength of the sun caused significant warming by day.

EDIT: And I can only dream of a summer like the one that followed. The absolute max was just 24.4, and temperatures didn't regularly reach 20 until late July. By mid-August they were below 20 generally. Only three days of the whole summer reached 23C!

Contrast that with last summer, regarded as mediocre on here. Temperatures were reliably above 20 by late June and stayed that way until mid-September. There were 20 days above 25C (let alone 23C). That's an incredible warming - I've certainly noticed it since the 80s, but the 60s look to make the 80s seem positively tropical!

Originally Posted by: Retron 

The summers of the 1960s were really cool by today's standards .  25C was regarded as a hot day in those days.   🙂 


Gavin S. FRmetS.

TWO Moderator.

Contact the TWO team - [email protected]

South Cambridgeshire. 93 metres or 302.25 feet ASL.



Bertwhistle
08 June 2025 17:58:32

Date records for lowest daytime max, annually by winter, if these occurred in the SE

-18.8 Swarraton (Hants.) 9 January 1901

-16.8 Woodbridge (Suffolk) 30 December 1906

-18.3 Liphook (Hants.) 30 December 1908

-20.0 Benson (Oxon) 6 February 1917

-17.2 Woburn (Beds.) 9 February 1919

-21.1 Elmstone (Kent) 30 January 1947

-13.3 Grendon Underwood (Bucks.) 12 December 1991

-14.5 Santon Downham (Suffolk) 3 January 1997

Originally Posted by: DEW 

These are minima, surely?

Also, synoptics for 12 Dec 1991 hardly look capable of producing a minimum of -13.3

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/twodata/reanalysis.aspx 


Bertie, Itchen Valley.

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