The Weather Outlook

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Retron
17 December 2024 15:51:32

Some extraordinarily (abnormally, even) warm 850s projected for much of north America in the run up to the new year.  

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

I stopped checking a couple of days ago, but I see they've become even more extreme since then. From the 6z GFS, Christmas Day 850 anomalies in NA - and yes, those are +20C anomalies, the equivalent of +19 or +20C 850s here!

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/14/25947/gfsna_15_204qya0.png 

UserPostedImage

And T2Ms for Christmas lunchtime / afternoon:

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/69/23886/gfsna_9_204jjh1.png 

UserPostedImage

For once it won't be a widespread white Christmas out there, and frankly seeing that massive swathe of above-zero temperatures all the way up to Husdon Bay is a bit disconcerting - it's outrageously above average for the time of year.

It remains to be seen what the effect of all that relative warmth spilling into the Atlantic will be, especially as it'll still be cold over Greenland etc. In theory that will fire up the jet on a different track to normal, and I'd hope at least it means an end to these wind storms we've been enduring down here this autumn/winter. It's most unlikely to happen soon enough to save Christmas, though, and it's definitely not going to happen in time to stop tomorrow's gales down here.


Leysdown, north Kent
Quantum
17 December 2024 16:30:38
Its happening earlier on the 12Z, that warm air is starting to amplify things up as early as boxing day.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

doctormog
17 December 2024 16:55:20

In the winter there’s often no correlation between 850 hPa and surface temperatures. Yesterday’s charts for Xmas Day had it cooler at the surface than above.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

This is very true under anticyclonic conditions. The latest GFS op run for here in Christmas Day has t850hPa and t2m values at more or less the same temperature (10-11°C). Very mild but not the “normal” relationship between these two values at other times of the year or with other synoptics. In isolation, a White Christmas is looking increasingly unlikely but I guess there are still 8 days to go!

The hints at a pattern change approaching the end of the year continue on the latest (12z) GFS op run too.


Quantum
17 December 2024 17:56:20
OK so the 12Z GEFS. Nothing much has changed but I'll go over the bits of the pattern that have high and low uncertainty.

The part that looks very confident is that a deep ridge is going to move across the US. By ~27th its sitting (along with its asociated warm anomoly) in the newfoundland area or the SE Canadian coast. Even though this is 10 days out the models are all very confident this is going to happen.

The least certain aspects are: we don't know much about the communication between this Canadian ridge and Greenland. Will it extend to Greenland, if it does how quickly will that happen. We also know very little about what's going on over Scandanavia at this time. Because there are two completely different options; either the polar vortex has relocated nearby or we actually have ridging there and the tropospheric polar vortex is instead closer to the north pole at that point.

So these uncertain elements will affect if/when cold gets to the UK. But the models do seem to be confident that the potential for cold solutions rapidly increases after around the 27ht with the 27th roughly the middle of a transition period between a zonal and meridonial atlantic.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
17 December 2024 19:43:08
Cold air never far away on the ECM post 240hr charts, but has it coming in more in mP rather than mA form in the latter stages. EC mean has increased the 2m temp anomalies this part of the world as well in the same time frame, much like the 12z GEFS. 
Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Quantum
17 December 2024 19:49:34

Cold air never far away on the ECM post 240hr charts, but has it coming in more in mP rather than mA form in the latter stages. EC mean has increased the 2m temp anomalies this part of the world as well in the same time frame, much like the 12z GEFS. 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

The ultimate hope is that we can get the tropospheric polar vortex into Scananavia or west siberia and the Canadian ridge to greenland. If that happens we can get a bitterly cold NNerly.

Its unfortunately unlikely, but is a possibility for happening circa NYD.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
17 December 2024 19:57:00

The ultimate hope is that we can get the tropospheric polar vortex into Scananavia or west siberia and the Canadian ridge to greenland. If that happens we can get a bitterly cold NNerly.

Its unfortunately unlikely, but is a possibility for happening circa NYD.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Would agree. Seems to be a lot of 'wobble' going in in the ensembles at the moment, but those cold anomalies to our near north don't seem to want to shift, and I think it will take the models another few days to work out how those incredible anomalies in the US and Canada will impact the broader north Atlantic pattern down the line. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Retron
18 December 2024 07:32:30
While waiting for the extended ECM to update, I've trawled through last night's 12z charts, seeing what became of all that warm air over Canada (not much, was the answer).

This frame really stands out:

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/12/24378/ecmwfna_15_192lth8.png 

UserPostedImage

That's a 26C anomaly compared to 91-20, and for context if we were to have that anomaly at the same time here... we'd set an all time high for 850s in the UK, and that includes the day we reached 40C a couple of years ago. Absolutely mind-blowing levels of warmth up there in Canada!


Leysdown, north Kent
Quantum
18 December 2024 07:52:25

While waiting for the extended ECM to update, I've trawled through last night's 12z charts, seeing what became of all that warm air over Canada (not much, was the answer).

This frame really stands out:

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/12/24378/ecmwfna_15_192lth8.png 

UserPostedImage

That's a 26C anomaly compared to 91-20, and for context if we were to have that anomaly at the same time here... we'd set an all time high for 850s in the UK, and that includes the day we reached 40C a couple of years ago. Absolutely mind-blowing levels of warmth up there in Canada!

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Its got to be good for cold weather here into the new year. No dream charts showing up yet but the pattern is still consistent and the deflattening definitely occurs after the 27th.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
18 December 2024 08:38:38

Its got to be good for cold weather here into the new year. No dream charts showing up yet but the pattern is still consistent and the deflattening definitely occurs after the 27th.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

A couple of charts that may support your theory. Both GEFS and EC seem to be on board for some sort of jarring of the pattern due to those high 850hPa temps over Canada into the new year, with cold anomalies continuing to stay put to our near north. 

GEFS:

UserPostedImage

EC:

UserPostedImage

Broader theme the same, if local nuances between both. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Brian Gaze
18 December 2024 08:40:12
I just took a look at the 10 mildest CET Decembers (select December from Extremes on the Central England Temperature analyser ) to see what the following Januaries and Februaries were like. The cold months were:

1852-53 Very cold feb

1710-11 Cold Feb

1843-44 Cold Feb

1828-29 Very cold Jan

1857-58 Rather cold Jan, Cold Feb


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Ally Pally Snowman
18 December 2024 08:42:47

I just took a look at the 10 mildest CET Decembers (select December from Extremes on the Central England Temperature analyser ) to see what the following Januaries and Februaries were like. The cold months were:

1852-53 Very cold feb

1710-11 Cold Feb

1843-44 Cold Feb

1828-29 Very cold Jan

1857-58 Rather cold Jan, Cold Feb

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

We are due one then. 😄


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
18 December 2024 08:45:46
WX charts: temperatures above norm generally above norm across Europe and very much so in the east. Contrary to previous posts in this thread, temperatures then become yet milder in week 2 with freezing weather retreating well back into Russia, but little change for the UK. Rain quite widely across W Europe in week 1, from heavy on Norwegian coast to mainly dry in Spain. In week 2 most of Europe dry, just a little around W coasts.

GFS Op 00z: LP in northern N Sea giving cool NW-lies at the end of this week, backing strong W-ly for a few days before a reload of LP restores the NW-lies Sun 22nd (cold and stormy for Scotland, not much better further S). HP then moves up from the SW and is well established 1035mb Christmas Day in the English Channel. This continues and intensifies across Europe to Mon 30th after which it drifts S-wards, and LP developing over Scandinavia provides N-lies for a series of glancing blows for Britain.

[unresolved queries; Will the UK HP over Christmas be a cloudy one or by contrast frosty at surface level? Is the average near norm suggested by WX a combination of mild Christmas week and cold New Year? What has happened to the traditional Scandy High? ]

ECM - as GFS

GEFS - temps cool -mild - cool to 23rd, then a week of milder temps for Christmas with good agreement between ens members; mean back to norm by New Year and declining, with an increasing number of cold outcomes compared to recent forecasts. Some rain at first, then mostly dry to 29th followed by modest amounts of rain in most runs. 

Snow row figures: A dusting of snow across Scotland around the 22nd but none for Christmas itself anywhere; chances about evens in the north for New Year, at that time not negligible even in the south .


War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

Gandalf The White
18 December 2024 08:46:45

We are due one then. 😄

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

LOL, that’s one interpretation. What struck me was that the most recent one was over 150 years ago!


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



ABainbridge
18 December 2024 09:55:03

I just took a look at the 10 mildest CET Decembers (select December from Extremes on the Central England Temperature analyser ) to see what the following Januaries and Februaries were like. The cold months were:

1852-53 Very cold feb

1710-11 Cold Feb

1843-44 Cold Feb

1828-29 Very cold Jan

1857-58 Rather cold Jan, Cold Feb

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Good idea to check that.  Very interesting.

Although, on reflection (and at the risk of being Mr Scrooge), I think there may be two big clues here: the combination of digits ‘17’ and ‘18’.  I wonder what percentage of Januarys and Februarys in those two centuries were rather cold, cold or very cold?

Bah humbug!

(Early January might be a little more interesting in the Highlands, though — GFS op drops towards the bottom of the ensemble.  Totally FI, of course.)

Brian Gaze
18 December 2024 10:10:36

Good idea to check that.  Very interesting.

Although, on reflection (and at the risk of being Mr Scrooge), I think there may be two big clues here: the combination of digits ‘17’ and ‘18’.  I wonder what percentage of Januarys and Februarys in those two centuries were rather cold, cold or very cold?

Bah humbug!

(Early January might be a little more interesting in the Highlands, though — GFS op drops towards the bottom of the ensemble.  Totally FI, of course.)

Originally Posted by: ABainbridge 

Agree. I don't think those stats necessarily tell us much. We are rapidly reaching the part of the season where people will start looking for more esoteric explanations for why a cold spell could be on the way. Needless to say, that means teleconnections and developments in the stratosphere. Personally, I'll stick to the medium range model output and look at developments to our south as well as north. The simple reality is that higher pressure to the south is a big factor in putting the kibosh on the UK winter.


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Quantum
18 December 2024 10:43:30
6Z GFS has the tropospheric polar vortex sitting over svalbard by the 27th.

Genuinely think things are looking very good still for around NYE onwards for cold here.

Looks like it could even end up over Scandanavia. That'l generate some bitterly cold uppers there.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Quantum
18 December 2024 10:51:21
What happens when you have the tropospheric polar vortex sitting in extremely high (for the time of year) SSTs in the Barents?

Seems to spin something up that looks like a snow hurricane north of Scandanavia.

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2024121806/gfseu-6-300.png?6 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Retron
18 December 2024 10:55:12

What happens when you have the tropospheric polar vortex sitting in extremely high (for the time of year) SSTs in the Barents?

Seems to spin something up that looks like a snow hurricane north of Scandanavia.

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfs/runs/2024121806/gfseu-6-300.png?6 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Otherwise known as a polar low. Structurally they resemble miniature hurricanes (not having fronts) and they bring very heavy snow when they hit land. (Some have been known to hit the UK in the past, not been any for a while though!)


Leysdown, north Kent
warrenb
18 December 2024 11:10:40
Yes the 6z has shifted the PV over to the Russia side, but also throws a trough just to the west of us meaning if Christmas day wasn't record breaking warm then news year day could well be.
Quantum
18 December 2024 12:30:57
I've never seen a Z500 anomoly ensemble mean go off the scale before at T+264h.

There is crazy high confidence for this Canadian ridge.

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2024121806/gensnh-31-5-264.png 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
18 December 2024 12:56:29

I've never seen a Z500 anomoly ensemble mean go off the scale before at T+264h.

There is crazy high confidence for this Canadian ridge.

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2024121806/gensnh-31-5-264.png 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Seems to want to extend a wider ridge over as far as northern Europe. Makes sense really as we are more or less on the same latitude.


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

DPower
18 December 2024 13:09:11
Would have been fun to see the 06z run go on another 3 or 4 days, I know it's meaningless at that range but I think we would be looking at a bitterly cold north, north easterly by then. A Canadian warming into the second and final week of December could be a game changer but far to early to consider really. 
Downpour
18 December 2024 13:11:38

6Z GFS has the tropospheric polar vortex sitting over svalbard by the 27th.

Genuinely think things are looking very good still for around NYE onwards for cold here.

Looks like it could even end up over Scandanavia. That'l generate some bitterly cold uppers there.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Where is "here" – what is your location?


Chingford

London E4

147ft

idj20
18 December 2024 13:28:44
Noon Christmas Day.

UserPostedImage

The perfect Summer synoptic that rarely show up in June or July when we want it the most.


Home location: Folkestone Harbour.

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