The Weather Outlook

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Jiries
16 December 2024 06:36:50
See that nasty winter killer HP on the chart you post it.  Boil with anger seeing this and not alone many ski industry also hate those HP cells plague during winter months then disappear in summer with flooding. 
Saint Snow
16 December 2024 09:48:20
All looking rather crap innit?


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Quantum
16 December 2024 10:19:35
Feel like the MSLP is now more in line with what's going on in the upper trop. Its usually pretty difficult to get anything interesting with such a terrible 500hpa pattern. Until heights drop in the south or raise in the north we aren't going to see much beyond 1 day polar maritime wintryness in scotland.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Quantum
16 December 2024 10:25:34
If you want something to cling to, while the pattern looks dreadful now right up until xmas, there is significant support for major improvement after xmas.

https://modeles16.meteociel.fr/modeles/gens/runs/2024121600/gensnh-31-5-384.png 

Look here. This is a 384 ensemble mean Z500 anom chart. Its rare to see anything but the weakest of colours on these charts, yet we have a suggestion that most ensembles are going for higher than average heights over Greenland and the NW atlantic. The models have been suggesting this for several days now.

I think we might want to accept a cold spell over xmas is unlikely, but things are about as confident as its possible for them to get (which tbf is still not very confident) that fortunes could change before the new year.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Quantum
16 December 2024 10:31:52
If MJO is your thing (imo I think its less of a waste of time than the stratosphere):

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/MJO/CLIVAR/EMON_BC.png 

Also suggesting a better pattern after xmas.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

CField
16 December 2024 10:39:34

If MJO is your thing (imo I think its less of a waste of time than the stratosphere):

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/MJO/CLIVAR/EMON_BC.png 

Also suggesting a better pattern after xmas.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Agree a mostly favoured outcome a quiet settled spell of frosts before the storms return


Favourite snowstorm

Famous channel low

Dec 31st 1978

Hastings East Sussex

Foot of level snow severe drifting

Next day max temp -4 degrees Celsius

Saint Snow
16 December 2024 10:43:14

Snow at Christmas has never been normal in my lifetime, so why do we fuss about it so much?    It's a bit like expecting a thunderstorm on  25th June every year ......

Originally Posted by: Essan 

It's never been 'the norm' for a prolonged period in recorded British history. Yes, there've been clusters of 'much more likely', but it's never been the norm. 

But it's symbolism, innit?

I think many people have a mental picture of the ideal Xmas - and almost all will have a rural/village snowy scene as part of it.


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Quantum
16 December 2024 10:45:12
I'm not sure that's true, I feel like it maybe was the norm in the 19th century. Independent of climate change it does seem the atlantic is much more active than it used to be in December now.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Tim A
16 December 2024 11:19:28
Just feels that we need great synoptics and a proper cold spell for any frost or some temporary snow now. 

We haven't had many  wintry showers in recent years with white Northern hills.  Maybe that is the future now.  There was a North Atlantic cold pool for a few years 2015-2020ish, which might have masked how bad things have become from zonality. 


Tim

NW Leeds

187m asl

 My PWS 

Saint Snow
16 December 2024 11:28:33

I'm not sure that's true, I feel like it maybe was the norm in the 19th century. 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Not really.

The start of the 19th Century was the back-end of the LIA - and the 1810's were a very cold decade, with several white Xmases. There were, of course, a number of major volcanic eruptions around that decade (including Tambora, a VEI7, which led to 'the year without a summer'). But for most of the rest of the century, a white Xmas - at least in London - was pretty much as rare as now. Things did uptick in the last couple of decades, with a white Xmas slightly more likely than not.

Worth noting that Dickens was a child in the 1810's, and many have noted how this could have influenced his notion of Xmas weather. Yet the year that A Christmas Carol was first published, London reached 10.1c on Xmas Day. 

I've searched unsuccessfully for a simple list of all white Xmases since 1800, which would have made it simpler. But after reading a number of articles, a very rough estimate of the ratio of white Xmases - and I'm talking falling and lying snow in London - in the 19th century would be around 1-in-4 to 1-in-5 (and concentrated in the first two and last two decades on the century). So not 'the norm' - but much more common than now


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Retron
  • Retron
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
16 December 2024 11:33:22

a white Xmas - at least in London - was pretty much as rare as now.

....

I'm talking falling and lying snow in London - in the 19th century would be around 1-in-4 to 1-in-5 (and concentrated in the first two and last two decades on the century). So not 'the norm' - but much more common than now

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

The last picture-postcard White Christmas in London would, like here, have been in 1970, I believe. So that's currently at best a 1-in-55 year event, as we (sadly) won't be breaking that streak this year either...


Leysdown, north Kent
Gandalf The White
16 December 2024 11:53:54

I'm not sure that's true, I feel like it maybe was the norm in the 19th century. Independent of climate change it does seem the atlantic is much more active than it used to be in December now.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

I don’t think the problem is the jet stream being more active (‘the Atlantic’), it’s the northward displacement of the high pressure belt that sits to our south. Brian has posted the graph that shows the slow but clear uptick in pressure to our south over recent decades. The only possible consequence of that is an increase in the probability of winds from the south to west. With the North Atlantic being almost constantly anomalously warm due to global warming that just accentuates the warmth and increased potential for heavier rainfall.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Saint Snow
16 December 2024 12:14:52

I don’t think the problem is the jet stream being more active (‘the Atlantic’), it’s the northward displacement of the high pressure belt that sits to our south. Brian has posted the graph that shows the slow but clear uptick in pressure to our south over recent decades. The only possible consequence of that is an increase in the probability of winds from the south to west. With the North Atlantic being almost constantly anomalously warm due to global warming that just accentuates the warmth and increased potential for heavier rainfall.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

The Azores High moving north *could* be a bonus... if it stays mid-Atlantic and brings us a northerly flow (in winter that is... in summer I want it vacationing NE'wards to sit over the UK ;))


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Gandalf The White
16 December 2024 12:47:56

A quick zip through the postage stamps for Xmas Day shows high pressure to our south, over France or slightly east, accounts for about 70% of the ensemble members, and high pressure somewhere between the Azores and France accounts for the rest. Temperatures predominantly average to mild, with a handful of slightly cooler options where the high pressure has more influence in the south.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Rob K
16 December 2024 13:38:35

I'm not sure that's true, I feel like it maybe was the norm in the 19th century. Independent of climate change it does seem the atlantic is much more active than it used to be in December now.

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

It still wasn't "the norm". I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Charles Dickens was to blame for popularising the idea of snow at Christmas, and he was influenced by a particular year in his own childhood.

Edit: just looked it up and apparently there was a White Christmas in 1830, when Dickens was 18. Also 1836, the year The Pickwick Papers was being serialised.

Alos realised I had missed Saint say much the same thing. Oops!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

Chunky Pea
16 December 2024 14:36:58
A chart from this day in 1851. Similar pattern to currently, but of course, eastern Europe, North America and the Arctic in a much cooler state. 

UserPostedImage

I'm not sure I would agree with Q's assertion the the Atlantic has become more active over the last few decades. If anything, it is less active than it used to be, and an active Atlantic at this time of year would be spurred on by the net cold over warm Tm's one time would be swiftly spun out of existence in quick and often violent fashion. Now, there is just too much warm tropical air for the cold, Arctic air to 'fight off'. Still happens closer to the Arctic circle on occasion, but how long before even that gives up the fight? 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Brian Gaze
16 December 2024 19:05:04
Ludicrous 850hPa level warmth on tonight's ECM 12Z. I expect it produces an inversion of sorts. 

UserPostedImage


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Ally Pally Snowman
16 December 2024 19:11:40

Ludicrous 850hPa level warmth on tonight's ECM 12Z. I expect it produces an inversion of sorts. 

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

12c 850s on Christmas day is remarkable and a testament to how far GW has already gone. 

 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Devonian
16 December 2024 20:15:30
Cold air corralled way to our N by unseasonable warmth entrenched at unusually high latitudes for the foreseeable. And this is just +1.5 😞
Gandalf The White
16 December 2024 20:15:31

Ludicrous 850hPa level warmth on tonight's ECM 12Z. I expect it produces an inversion of sorts. 

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Yes, it’s slightly cooler at the surface: a range of 8-11c at midday for most of the UK.

Markedly cooler on Boxing Day and 27th


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Lionel Hutz
16 December 2024 21:28:25

Yes, it’s slightly cooler at the surface: a range of 8-11c at midday for most of the UK.

Markedly cooler on Boxing Day and 27th

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

Those temperature charts also show quite cold air over Scotland. Okay, we know that we're not going to see a Beast from the East for Christmas Day but much of Scotland will see cold and with not too great a change, it's possible that we could find the colder air coming further South to affect more of us.


Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL



Brian Gaze
16 December 2024 21:38:32
Another notable feature emerging is the consistency of the medium range models at what is still 9 days away. I've not looked at all the output today, but the main models appear to be virtually carbon copies of each other, with the differences only relating to how far northwards the high pressure will build.  
Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

Saint Snow
16 December 2024 21:40:33
The PV is actually showing as pretty disrupted, too. Just that the biggest 'evil blob' of it is sitting in the worst place for us (Greenland/NE Canada)

Our climate really is pitifully crap in winter. 


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Quantum
17 December 2024 06:47:38
Signals are still growing for some interest after xmas, particularly around NYE onwards.


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
17 December 2024 06:53:40

All looking rather crap innit?

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

It is but you know full well it could change.  You also know, that sinking feeling is most likely justified.  


Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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