The Weather Outlook

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Chunky Pea
15 December 2024 13:44:42

Well we see it year after year - cold spells are more potent in Spring or as we recently discovered in November 2022, 2023 and November just gone as proved. What also bugs me is that the high pressure we get do NOT produce the very crisp mornings with sharp frosts that we use to see such as frost. They all seem to be dirty highs with cloud and temperatures of 6c by night and 7c by day. YUCK!

So that goes back to want someone else was saying about the continuation of above normal SST's in the N, Atlantic which has been going on for years and years now and warmer water means more moisture with high pressure so our high pressure systems are cloudy damp mucky highs... from the Atlantic? Correct me if I am wrong but it could be due to the SST's in North Atlantic although doesn't explain why we continue to see potent colder spells in spring months and autumn months...hmmm interesting eh?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

What you are observing here is more that the Azores high is becoming increasingly influential in this part of the world, and i think that its influence is warming the seas in that it helps reduced vigorous zonality, thus allowing the ocean to retain heat, which in turn could be a downstream effect of a warming North American continent. No real cold air to drive those north Atlantic lows. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Brian Gaze
15 December 2024 13:47:06

 The 6z GFS has a cloudy high for us, with only a few hours of clear skies. It's probably why there's no inversion... you'd expect one to set up very quickly at this time of year under a high with clear skies!

EDIT: And I see the MetO raw has a remarkable 15 here on Wednesday.

Originally Posted by: Retron 

When I saw the 06Z North Atlantic charts my first thought was "inversion" but then I looked at the 2m temperatures. 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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Retron
15 December 2024 14:08:35
Incidentally in the "death of the midwinter easterly" post, I'd pinned my hopes on the AMO going negative - that's the multi-decadal oscillation in SSTs in the North Atlantic, and by and large when it's negative we get colder winters. It should be decreasing towards zero rapidly by now.

I think, sadly, it's broken beyond repair! Just look at this - I've plotted the values available  from NOAA below:

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/amo.jpg 

UserPostedImage


Leysdown, north Kent
ballamar
15 December 2024 17:29:22

Incidentally in the "death of the midwinter easterly" post, I'd pinned my hopes on the AMO going negative - that's the multi-decadal oscillation in SSTs in the North Atlantic, and by and large when it's negative we get colder winters. It should be decreasing towards zero rapidly by now.

I think, sadly, it's broken beyond repair! Just look at this - I've plotted the values available  from NOAA below:

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/amo.jpg 

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Quite telling that! Definitely shows how things are changing even if some don’t want to believe

White Meadows
15 December 2024 17:49:13
After what seemed like a few promising signs developing over recent days for Christmas cold, we now seem to be reverting to a rather dull and boring pattern. 

Even major players like MJO indexing or SSW events can’t seem to put a dent in the UK ‘winter’ these days. 

GezM
  • GezM
  • Advanced Member
15 December 2024 18:19:35

When I saw the 06Z North Atlantic charts my first thought was "inversion" but then I looked at the 2m temperatures. 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

I'm not a fan of inversions in the UK. They are usually dull, misty or foggy affairs that lead to freezing drizzle at best. I'd much prefer cloudy, mild highs sitting abit further south which at least give some hope of brightness or sunshine like we had for much of today. 

Even if inversions evolve into ice days they nearly always get blown away by mild Atlantic depressions . 


Living in St Albans, Herts (116m asl)

Working at Luton Airport, Beds (160m asl)

Gandalf The White
15 December 2024 18:38:52

I'm not a fan of inversions in the UK. They are usually dull, misty or foggy affairs that lead to freezing drizzle at best. I'd much prefer cloudy, mild highs sitting abit further south which at least give some hope of brightness or sunshine like we had for much of today. 

Even if inversions evolve into ice days they nearly always get blown away by mild Atlantic depressions

Originally Posted by: GezM 

But every cold spell ends in something like that manner, it’s the nature of our climate.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Brian Gaze
15 December 2024 21:57:20
I've just removed some posts.
Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

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"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

tallyho_83
15 December 2024 22:05:40

Incidentally in the "death of the midwinter easterly" post, I'd pinned my hopes on the AMO going negative - that's the multi-decadal oscillation in SSTs in the North Atlantic, and by and large when it's negative we get colder winters. It should be decreasing towards zero rapidly by now.

I think, sadly, it's broken beyond repair! Just look at this - I've plotted the values available  from NOAA below:

https://ukwct.org.uk/weather/amo.jpg 

UserPostedImage

Originally Posted by: Retron 

I am unsure how to read that chart and what it denotes?


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

Gandalf The White
15 December 2024 22:33:30

I am unsure how to read that chart and what it denotes?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

It is tracking the temperature of the Atlantic Ocean since 1840, showing the oscillation (AMO)  failing - just a steady warming trend.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Lionel Hutz
15 December 2024 22:36:53

I'm not a fan of inversions in the UK. They are usually dull, misty or foggy affairs that lead to freezing drizzle at best. I'd much prefer cloudy, mild highs sitting abit further south which at least give some hope of brightness or sunshine like we had for much of today. 

Even if inversions evolve into ice days they nearly always get blown away by mild Atlantic depressions . 

Originally Posted by: GezM 

When you put it that way, inversions sound good. I do enjoy a bit of anti cyclonic gloom, provided it's cold. Dull, foggy and cold sounds like proper dickensian weather to me. Doesn't look like the form horse but we'll see in a few days, I suppose. 


Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL



Gandalf The White
15 December 2024 23:22:30

When you put it that way, inversions sound good. I do enjoy a bit of anti cyclonic gloom, provided it's cold. Dull, foggy and cold sounds like proper dickensian weather to me. Doesn't look like the form horse but we'll see in a few days, I suppose. 

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz 

My point this morning was that day by day high pressure is being modelled further north and that if that trend continues we could end up under a high pressure cell or even get it just to our north.  It’s by no means a certainty but certainly an option.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



The Beast from the East
16 December 2024 00:58:44

My point this morning was that day by day high pressure is being modelled further north and that if that trend continues we could end up under a high pressure cell or even get it just to our north.  It’s by no means a certainty but certainly an option.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

A frosty "white" christmas is possible still, better than the mild dross we've had in recent years I suppose. 


Purley, Surrey, 70m ASL

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Chunky Pea
16 December 2024 05:57:15
GFS 00z 7 day sliding window of 2m temp anoms. I'm just glad it isn't summer as it would be hellishly hot and humid. One thing I have been noting though is the amount of colder air that has been filtering out from the east side of Greenland over the last few weeks, and the models keep this going for another while yet. I would imagine that sea ice around that region would be in a relatively healthier state than in recent years. 

UserPostedImage


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

nsrobins
16 December 2024 07:47:50

My point this morning was that day by day high pressure is being modelled further north and that if that trend continues we could end up under a high pressure cell or even get it just to our north.  It’s by no means a certainty but certainly an option.

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

Even in what looks like a stonewall westerly regime you’ll always have a few danglers in the extended range teasing inversions and easterly wafts (the new buzz word - we don’t get proper easterlies anymore). I agree however the UK high inversion scenario is a possibility and might be our best hope for a seasonal feel.

The majority view suggests average to mild up to and probably over Christmas. 


Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
16 December 2024 08:03:29
WX charts - still no great change in temps for the next two weeks; Europe generally above norm, very much so in the east; only cooler in N Scandinavia and Turkey. Cold air over Russia is only a little below freezing and not going anywhere. Rain widespread over Europe in week 1, but only heavy for NW Scotland and W Norway; week 2 drying up and any rain moving away to the north. 

GFS - as yesterday with alternating HP and LP moving E-wards across Britain into Europe though perhaps more emphasis on HP later. HPs over France with ridge to north bring milder weather (1035mb France Tue 17th, Sat 21st blink-and-you've-missed-it, 1035mb Channel Wed 25th persisting, 1030mb Brittany Wed 1st  ; LPs moving into N Sea bring cooler NW-lies (970mb off Norway Thu 19th, again Sun 22nd, 1010mb - a weak affair - NE England, Tue 31st). Caveat with a persistent HP is that at this time of year frost and fog are possible.

ECM - very much like GFS

GEM - again similar though LP and HP follow each other more closely so windier in general, esp the NW-lies.

GEFS - temps  down-up-down to a cool point Fri 20th; then up-down-up to a mild period around Christmas Day. Ens agreement breaks up after this but mean, op and control all decline slowly to norm by New Year; a (very) few spectacularly cold outliers at this time. Some heavy rain at the end of this week for the S & W, otherwise random bits and pieces though rain is always persistent in the NW. 

Inverness has a couple of probable snow days 18th and 22nd (28/33 on the snow row) elsewhere single figures; and for the 25th itself England manages 1/33 or 2/33 at best, Scotland not much more.


War is God's way of teaching Americans geography - Ambrose Bierce

Chichester 12m asl

Ally Pally Snowman
16 December 2024 10:38:50
Long way to go but the Christmas Eve , Christmas Day and Boxing Day temp records all under threat atm.


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Saint Snow
16 December 2024 11:52:26

Long way to go but the Christmas Eve , Christmas Day and Boxing Day temp records all under threat atm.

Originally Posted by: Ally Pally Snowman 

They're more likely to be just nondescript nothingness, just some grey crap with temps around 12c


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Downpour
16 December 2024 12:25:49

They're more likely to be just nondescript nothingness, just some grey crap with temps around 12c

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Which many of us would be perfectly happy with. With snow (and, probably, frost) likely ruled out in the populous SE quadrant, many would buy an offer of a dry and benign Christmas Day. It has been wet, windy and unusable from a Christmas-walk POV for the last six or seven years. Leading to being cooped up indoors even more than normal over the 'holiday'. 


Chingford

London E4

147ft

Ally Pally Snowman
16 December 2024 12:43:55

They're more likely to be just nondescript nothingness, just some grey crap with temps around 12c

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Maybe, but looks like a foehn effect may set up in the Highlands.  Could easily see 16c if that happens. Maybe 15c or so in the South as well. 


Bishop's Stortford 85m ASL.
Russwirral
16 December 2024 13:06:08
Yeh I agree with others, there were some signals that could have developed into some decent chances of white Christmas, which eroded to might have a chance of a technical white Christmas... which has now eroded to bit wafts of south westerly winds...

On the face of it, at least for most its looking like a pretty much mild december as a whole.  For many feeling the pinch, thats a small blessing.  So lets just appreciate that for what its worth.

On another note though, Ive seen a HP dominated outlook quickly turn into a northern blocking one... so dont write off the xmas period as a whole, just yet.  a little bit of retrogression and the outlook could be pretty seasonal very suddenly


Gandalf The White
16 December 2024 13:17:31

Yeh I agree with others, there were some signals that could have developed into some decent chances of white Christmas, which eroded to might have a chance of a technical white Christmas... which has now eroded to bit wafts of south westerly winds...

On the face of it, at least for most its looking like a pretty much mild december as a whole.  For many feeling the pinch, thats a small blessing.  So lets just appreciate that for what its worth.

On another note though, Ive seen a HP dominated outlook quickly turn into a northern blocking one... so dont write off the xmas period as a whole, just yet.  a little bit of retrogression and the outlook could be pretty seasonal very suddenly

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 

Later in the run a handful of perturbations bring some sort of high pressure rise to the west. Have a look a P17 from the 06z, which is the only one that actually delivers as we end the year.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Saint Snow
16 December 2024 17:28:23
Not having any sort of pop at anyone, but my excitement levels wane after Xmas Day. I'd ideally want a cold and snowy spell to set in around the 10th December (and last till into the New Year)


Martin

Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)

A TWO addict since 14/12/01

"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."

Aneurin Bevan

Retron
16 December 2024 17:55:34

Not having any sort of pop at anyone, but my excitement levels wane after Xmas Day. I'd ideally want a cold and snowy spell to set in around the 10th December (and last till into the New Year)

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

Hey, the flame hasn't completely gone out, even if there's not much wick left!

The GEFS has this little number, for example, and there's another member which blows up a Scandi High (not exciting for you, more exciting for me).

https://images.meteociel.fr/im/20/27920/gens_29_2_216wef2.png 

UserPostedImage

(And of course while acknowledging the fact that a mild, WSW'ly Christmas is by far the most likely option right now, it's still good to see the likes of the above... a reminder that we are, of course, still 9 days away!)


Leysdown, north Kent
David M Porter
16 December 2024 17:57:52

Yeh I agree with others, there were some signals that could have developed into some decent chances of white Christmas, which eroded to might have a chance of a technical white Christmas... which has now eroded to bit wafts of south westerly winds...

On the face of it, at least for most its looking like a pretty much mild december as a whole.  For many feeling the pinch, thats a small blessing.  So lets just appreciate that for what its worth.

On another note though, Ive seen a HP dominated outlook quickly turn into a northern blocking one... so dont write off the xmas period as a whole, just yet.  a little bit of retrogression and the outlook could be pretty seasonal very suddenly

Originally Posted by: Russwirral 

On your last point, IIRC this is pretty much what happened in 2009. After the mild, wet and windy weather that dominated November that year finally abated in early December, we then had a spell of HP domination for a time around the middle of the month. This I think then merged with rising pressure over Greenland just after mid-month and, as the saying goes, the rest is history. I think something similar happened during November 2010 too as I recall that month being mostly dry in the lead-up to the freeze.


Lenzie, Glasgow

"A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody." – Thomas Paine

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