And no I'm not bipolar, I am a little cabin fevered though after enduring months of this lockdown. I appolgise for some of my more egregious outbursts last week.

 

They are behaving like petulant children. "Do not engage" "Do not respond to emails" - that is not a constructive way forward, it is playground behaviour.

The government issuing statements about schools reopening without doing the necessary consultation and getting support first is scarcely any less deplorable.

 Its not the governments job to micromanage every descision. The government's main responsibility is broad policy outlines. Could the government have been more explicit? Yes, its clear the govt was myopic about a potential care home epidemic. But in localities where being overwhelmed was not likely (i.e outside of London outside of that first week in April) its not too much to ask for some basic initiative.

You underestimate the capacity for jobsworthism that goes on in the NHS.

I just cannot accept this premise, it's very unlikely for such a monumental decision to be taken at lower levels. Also contrast our govt's approach with that of other countries (Sweden, France, Belgium), where the governments have repeatedly apologised for their mistakes.  

 

I just cannot accept this premise, it's very unlikely for such a monumental decision to be taken at lower levels. Also contrast our govt's approach with that of other countries (Sweden, France, Belgium), where the governments have repeatedly apologised for their mistakes.  

You have to understand the government has priorities. Think back to end of march, early April. None of us, here, on TWO had care  homes on our mind and at that time the virus did not seem to be endemic in care homes. Our main concern, at that time, was the very real prospect of the NHS becoming overwhelmed. And that was likely the government's priority too. Discretion for most descisions is with the relative authority. At the time the advice from PHE was that care homes were low risk. But it takes some common sense, if bed capacity was not overwhelmed (again I'm talking outside london, outside of that first week) then that discretion was left to lower level manages within the NHS and in some cases higher level managers on a more national scale. The NHS has to bear some responsibility for screwing up by failing to use simple common sense.

 

Let's be honest Brian, we are lone voices in the Wildnerness. And yes it is ultimately the government's fault that the NHS is the way it is. But the government rather than a government. There is no political party in the UK that has the balls to raise these issues. From the green party to UKIP every single one has the view that the NHS is untouchable. And the reason for this is because the public believes the NHS is perfect and this opinion is held by those from the far-left to the far-right. Nothing will ever change because the NHS is a religion that cannot be critisized. Its like how the gun problem in America will never change.

 

Really?  I have to say I think you've got that entirely wrong.

People recognise the NHS has its faults and limitations but it still does an incredibly good job in the circumstances.

I've said many times that it would help if our leaders addressed the 'mission creep' in the NHS.  It is doing far, far more than it was created to do and doing so against a backdrop of an increasingly overweight, unfit and ageing population.

 

Really?  I have to say I think you've got that entirely wrong.

People recognise the NHS has its faults and limitations but it still does an incredibly good job in the circumstances.

I've said many times that it would help if our leaders addressed the 'mission creep' in the NHS.  It is doing far, far more than it was created to do and doing so against a backdrop of an increasingly overweight, unfit and ageing population.

Gandalf, can you name a country in the world that overestimates its healthcare more than the UK does?

What proportion of the UK population think UK healthcare is the best in the world? It has to be at least 75%. Look at the Olympic games opening ceramony. The NHS is literally part of our culture. And that is not a good thing because it blinds us to its faults in a way that no other country is. The same is true of America and guns.

I've said that before, but we all know this was an unprecedented crisis for all governments and it's only natural for mistakes to be made. There was enormous good will towards the govt back in early and mid-March both in our little microcosm here and in society in general, as this was an existential threat. I remember even ardent anti-tories like 'fairweather' and 'Whether Idle' making supportive posts here.

But the more incompetence the govt has displayed in several areas, the more deflection, lies and PR they decided to use instead of apologising and trying to correct their mistakes. They are shambolic.

People talk about 'chest beating nationalism' but have a think at what UK icon is worshipped more than the NHS? Not the queen, not the army, not the police, not the flag, not the anthem. The NHS unites the country in the sense that you know someone is british because everyone of every class, bent, and political position agrees the NHS is amazing.

 

How much influence do you really think a government minister has over the likes of PHE? A government minister can only macromanage the situation, the fine details of how the policy is implemented is all the civil service. PHE was ordered to ramp up testing and they failed because they refused to engage with universities and the private sector.

Getting back to the original point, it was government policy to clear space in hospitals for the anticipated surge in Covid-19 cases.  You know as well as I do that there is a lot of bed-blocking with the elderly occupying beds for non-medical reasons. 

So, when the government says 'prepare for a wave of cases' you don't see a direct and obvious link to the subsequent decisions at local level to discharge elderly patients?  If you don't then you have an odd view of the chain of command that doesn't fit with your claims of the NHS being overly bureaucratic.

 You have to understand the government has priorities. Think back to end of march, early April. None of us, here, on TWO had care  homes on our mind and at that time the virus did not seem to be endemic in care homes. 

That's not quite true. Yes, back then everyone was focusing on the need for the NHS to avoid being overwhelmed and the numbers of ventilators etc., but there was talk about care homes even here!

Also the pandemic exercise had identified care homes as a priority and even the govt's chief advisers had mentioned them in Feb.

People talk about 'chest beating nationalism' but have a think at what UK icon is worshipped more than the NHS? Not the queen, not the army, not the police, not the flag, not the anthem. The NHS unites the country in the sense that you know someone is british because everyone of every class, bent, and political position agrees the NHS is amazing.

The NHS is amazing.  That doesn't mean it can't be improved.

As for 'worshipping the NHS'.......... 

You do have a habit of choosing some weird language to express some equally weird views.

I've said that before, but we all know this was an unprecedented crisis for all governments and it's only natural for mistakes to be made. There was enormous good will towards the govt back in early and mid-March both in our little microcosm here and in society in general, as this was an existential threat. I remember even ardent anti-tories like 'fairweather' and 'Whether Idle' making supportive posts here.

But the more incompetence the govt has displayed in several areas, the more deflection, lies and PR they decided to use instead of apologising and trying to correct their mistakes. They are shambolic.

 

Sure but the point I'm making is that in some cases the Government is just being scapegoated. We need to point out the flaws in all public institutions not the government.

If my posts are coming across as one sided its only because there is no shortage of critisim of the government but there is a deficit of critisim of the NHS. I mean back when all this was kicking off you will recall I actually praised the NHS much to my own suprise as during the containment phase the UK led Europe.

And yes the NHS deserves credit where credit was due there, but inevitably it turned out my worries were completely correct and the NHS really screwed up the delay phase.

 

Gandalf, can you name a country in the world that overestimates its healthcare more than the UK does?

What proportion of the UK population think UK healthcare is the best in the world? It has to be at least 75%. Look at the Olympic games opening ceramony. The NHS is literally part of our culture. And that is not a good thing because it blinds us to its faults in a way that no other country is. The same is true of America and guns.

 

 

What's the point in engaging with you when you just make bizarre statements and pluck numbers out of thin air?

I don't even accept your premise that the UK 'overestimates its healthcare' (sic).  But if you want an example of a healthcare system that isn't fit for purpose try the USA.

 

The NHS is amazing.  That doesn't mean it can't be improved.

As for 'worshipping the NHS'.......... 

You do have a habit of choosing some weird language to express some equally weird views.

NHS is mediocre at best. Amazing implies its one of the best healthcare institutions in the world. Not even close.

And this is the problem, no one is willing to admit that we have a mediocre healthcare service, not an outstanding one. People outside of the UK laugh at us for our dogmatic attitude towards our healthcare. How do you think the olympic ceremony with its obligatory NHS worship segment came across to the other countries? It was embarrasing.

 

The government issuing statements about schools reopening without doing the necessary consultation and getting support first is scarcely any less deplorable.

They gave three weeks advance notice!

 

Are you sure it wasn't Covid-19?

It could have been Sars I suppose, it was about that time, and there was a Singaporean girl in the office, and Priti hated her

But seriously, it was an inner ear infection, and I still haven't recovered!

 

What's the point in engaging with you when you just make bizarre statements and pluck numbers out of thin air?

I don't even accept your premise that the UK 'overestimates its healthcare' (sic).  But if you want an example of a healthcare system that isn't fit for purpose try the USA.

Cmon gandalf you didn't just make the 'but the USA' argument. At least the Americans have some amount of self awareness about their healthcare.

You yourself called the NHS amazing, most people would agree with you. Hence most people overestimate the NHS.

 If my posts are coming across as one sided its only because there is no shortage of critisim of the government but there is a deficit of critisim of the NHS. I mean back when all this was kicking off you will recall I actually praised the NHS much to my own suprise as during the containment phase the UK led Europe.

Yes, I remember that and in that aspect the govt was doing well in Feb. We were testing more than any other country in Europe and we were following the best practice of test, trace and isolate. Behind the scenes however, mistakes were being made that were sowing the seeds of many subsequent problems: no border closures or proper screening, lack of scaling up of testing, being biased by a flu pandemic preparation, the catastrophic indulgence with the notion of herd immunity without a vaccine, the dogged refusal to see what was happening in other countries (both in Asia and Europe), the delay in stopping mass gatherings, delay in locking down and so many more. 

 

Yes, I remember that and in that aspect the govt was doing well in Feb. We were testing more than any other country in Europe and we were following the best practice of test, trace and isolate. Behind the scenes however, mistakes were being made that were sowing the seeds of many subsequent problems: no border closures or proper screening, lack of scaling up of testing, being biased by a flu pandemic preparation, the catastrophic indulgence with the notion of herd immunity without a vaccine, the dogged refusal to see what was happening in other countries (both in Asia and Europe), the delay in stopping mass gatherings, delay in locking down and so many more. 

Yes all these were issues, but it isn't right to put 100% of the blame for this incompetence on the govt. For example the failure to ramp up testing was PHE's inability to adapt, not a failure of the government for stressing the importance of testing. Herd immunity and poor flu pandemic research was partly the fault of independent scientific advisors giving the wrong advice. Hell Dominic cummings has been relevaled to have been skeptical of waiting too long before pubs closed e.c.t.

And none of this is to absolve the government either. The government, could ultimately, have expanded its advisors and acted sooner. But to suggest that the civil service, the NHS, PHE e.c.t. are blame free as is being implicity if not explicitly said is completely wrong.

I should point out that this crisis suggests, to me, that the government wasn't being agressive enough towards incompetence in the civil service, not the other way round. I.e more Cummings not less needed.

And no I'm not bipolar, I am a little cabin fevered though after enduring months of this lockdown. I appolgise for some of my more egregious outbursts last week.

 

It is Justin who should apologise! He is prone to hissy fits and intemperate language. I don't suppose he means to be rude and ignorant, but that is how he comes across when he loses his temper.

Justin - this is a forum for debate and people are free to write what they think and you are free to disagree, but it can be done without calling people bipolar or whatever.