The Weather Outlook

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Quantum
14 September 2018 13:31:20

TS Helene now. Very sheared system with all convection to the north of the LP centre.

Again models still want to intensify it up. If it doesn't then I'm wondering what has gone wrong with the model outputs. I mean its not surprising in the sense the NOAA scientists definitely know what they are talking about. Just perplexing the models could get it so wrong, and if so why?

 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

ARTzeman
14 September 2018 13:34:20

On BBC Weather site.. Met Office warning published 10:45. Strong winds to western side  of Uk late Monday into Tuesday. It is a Yellow Warning.

 

 




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Quantum
14 September 2018 13:42:58

Nice tropical cyclone floater.

Subtropical cyclone Joyce is on the left incidentally. It also has a naked centre to the west of the convection. 

 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Stormchaser
14 September 2018 14:12:13

TS Helene now. Very sheared system with all convection to the north of the LP centre.

Again models still want to intensify it up. If it doesn't then I'm wondering what has gone wrong with the model outputs. I mean its not surprising in the sense the NOAA scientists definitely know what they are talking about. Just perplexing the models could get it so wrong, and if so why?

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Not often you see two tropical systems close enough together for a Fujiwhara effect so far north and east in the Atlantic. I sense that the area of current activity will become an increasingly active region in the decades to come.


As to your question, well I read recently on the Wunderground site that for some reason, the models aren't fed isotherm depth data and so work on the assumption that the surface temps extend way down below the surface. This doesn't impact ex-tropical cyclones much, if at all, but for tropical ones it often leads to errors such as you describe.

This also comes into play where the ocean is shallow as the model doesn't know how deep it is; that's what led to them keeping Florence too strong as it approached the U.S. (they're much more on track now that Florence is right by the coast, as the Gulf Stream is effectively giving it an inexhaustible heat supply to work with despite the shallow water).

 

I'm not sure this explains the whole situation though, because Ophelia of last year, for example, managed to exceed model projections in hitting major hurricane status while SE of the Azores. Perhaps there comes a time when the increased Coriolis effect becomes the dominant factor?

That being a reason why I fear for what the Central Atlantic might produce in the decades to come; sufficient oceanic warmth reaches areas with a greater Coriolis 'boost' to cyclonic rotation than ever before in the basin. 


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Chunky Pea
14 September 2018 15:57:51

 

Thanks, I had a look at it. Interesting and a thorough run down through the models. However, your interest and mine are a small bit at variance  Your main interest is whether Helene can hit the UK while retaining tropical characteristics. My main interest is my hope that it avoids my neck of the woods. But you did confirm the wide amount of variety in the forecast path of the storm, tropical or otherwise. It could miss both Ireland and the UK completely or hit us smack bang. Where would your money be on where it is most likely to make landfall?

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz 

This is the UK Met Office fax forecast for Monday noon, still a sort of hybrid system at that stage.

 

To compare, here is Ophelia on the fax analysis chart when in more or less the same region. Had lost its tropical characteristics at this stage but was still a bigger storm entirely in comparison to Helene.

 

I think if the SE of Ireland/Wales/N.England does get hit by Helene, then it will be a much shorter affair than Ophelia, but whether it contains the same potency, only time will tell. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Quantum
14 September 2018 16:11:04

 

Not often you see two tropical systems close enough together for a Fujiwhara effect so far north and east in the Atlantic. I sense that the area of current activity will become an increasingly active region in the decades to come.


As to your question, well I read recently on the Wunderground site that for some reason, the models aren't fed isotherm depth data and so work on the assumption that the surface temps extend way down below the surface. This doesn't impact ex-tropical cyclones much, if at all, but for tropical ones it often leads to errors such as you describe.

This also comes into play where the ocean is shallow as the model doesn't know how deep it is; that's what led to them keeping Florence too strong as it approached the U.S. (they're much more on track now that Florence is right by the coast, as the Gulf Stream is effectively giving it an inexhaustible heat supply to work with despite the shallow water).

 

I'm not sure this explains the whole situation though, because Ophelia of last year, for example, managed to exceed model projections in hitting major hurricane status while SE of the Azores. Perhaps there comes a time when the increased Coriolis effect becomes the dominant factor?

That being a reason why I fear for what the Central Atlantic might produce in the decades to come; sufficient oceanic warmth reaches areas with a greater Coriolis 'boost' to cyclonic rotation than ever before in the basin. 

Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 

Indeed but some of the ocean coupled models are also showing this intensification.

And yes I agree that this effect is less important at higher latitudes (like SSTs in general) due to the colder upper atmospheric temperatures. 

The other thing I have to ask is this. Are the forecasts that expedite the post tropical transition too fast because people are simply not used to seeing tropical activity this far north? I think the answer is partly yes. Medicanes only rarely get any kind of acknowledgement as tropical systems because they are understudied. It was how I was effectively be able to lobby single handedely to get the 2016 storm called Trixie (which is the name still used by reputable organisations today!). I think, like Ophelia, the transition will end further north than expected and more in line with the models. That's just a gut instinct though.

 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
14 September 2018 16:16:24

 

Indeed but some of the ocean coupled models are also showing this intensification.

And yes I agree that this effect is less important at higher latitudes (like SSTs in general) due to the colder upper atmospheric temperatures. 

The other thing I have to ask is this. Are the forecasts that expedite the post tropical transition too fast because people are simply not used to seeing tropical activity this far north? I think the answer is partly yes. Medicanes only rarely get any kind of acknowledgement as tropical systems because they are understudied. It was how I was effectively be able to lobby single handedely to get the 2016 storm called Trixie (which is the name still used by reputable organisations today!). I think, like Ophelia, the transition will end further north than expected and more in line with the models. That's just a gut instinct though.

 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

It is interesting to note that the ECM this morning has maintaineed its 'warm core' at the 500 hPa level right on impact, despite losing it at the 850 level well before that. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Quantum
14 September 2018 16:17:16

Is looking slightly healthier with the LP centre no longer entirely exposed. 

Latest rating is 60kn which represents upper TS strength and some intensification. Looks like the models may be vindicated after all! 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

doctormog
14 September 2018 16:18:28
It looks like the Carolinas are going to have some serious flooding problems based on the rainfall, storm surge and longevity of Florence
Quantum
14 September 2018 16:23:46

 

It is interesting to note that the ECM this morning has maintaineed its 'warm core' at the 500 hPa level right on impact, despite losing it at the 850 level well before that. 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

I don't have phase space diagrams for the ECM but we can look at the UKM

 

 

There is a warm core at all levels until right at the end of the run! This phase space suggests transition doesn't even begin until Southern France latitudes! 

Regarding the asymmetry, I believe this is due to the storm being small. In reality it probably is symmetrical for longer than suggested but the calculations are occurring over a larger area than would be appropriate for such a small storm. I covered this point in my livestream about high latitude storms.

 

Models are still full steam ahead for a very late transition! 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Quantum
14 September 2018 16:27:10

Helene will move into 500hpa temperatures around 6C colder than it is now when the final intensification phase is expected. Very crudely put I would say that means provided the SSTs are above 21C we should still be able to support deep convection.

 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

Chunky Pea
14 September 2018 16:27:36

 

 

Regarding the asymmetry, I believe this is due to the storm being small. In reality it probably is symmetrical for longer than suggested but the calculations are occurring over a larger area than would be appropriate for such a small storm. I covered this point in my livestream about high latitude storms.

 

Originally Posted by: Quantum 

Interesting. I'll give that a watch later. 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

tallyho_83
14 September 2018 18:20:04

It looks like the Carolinas are going to have some serious flooding problems based on the rainfall, storm surge and longevity of Florence

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

 

In terms of wind it's ok...but as for Flooding and rain maybe the worse is yet to come? 

When is the storm surge going to take affect? - i heard floods will peak Tuesday!?


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Lionel Hutz
14 September 2018 20:21:22

 

This is the UK Met Office fax forecast for Monday noon, still a sort of hybrid system at that stage.

 

To compare, here is Ophelia on the fax analysis chart when in more or less the same region. Had lost its tropical characteristics at this stage but was still a bigger storm entirely in comparison to Helene.

 

I think if the SE of Ireland/Wales/N.England does get hit by Helene, then it will be a much shorter affair than Ophelia, but whether it contains the same potency, only time will tell. 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

That's a useful comparison. Hopefully, you're right. Can't post the latest NOAA charts at the moment but it looks like Helene's arrival in this part of the world will be delayed which is good news  


Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL



DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member Topic Starter
15 September 2018 05:55:29

Helene still headed for the Irish Sea as an identifiable feature on Monday night according to GFS, but ECM has it as part of a general storm with southerly gales across the west of Britain.

 

Main damage from Florence so far is storm surge, which looks as if it's totally wrecked some inadvisably sited beach developments in NC. A bit annoying, the way that UK media were lazily assuming yesterday that because Florence had decreased to Cat 1, it wasn't going to do much damage. 


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Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
15 September 2018 06:52:21

Daniel and Becca have just checked in for this morning’s flight to Cancun. So far it’s looking like they’ll be away from the paths of any hurricanes there. My fingers will be crossed for the next two weeks though. 


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doctormog
15 September 2018 06:57:01

Helene still headed for the Irish Sea as an identifiable feature on Monday night according to GFS, but ECM has it as part of a general storm with southerly gales across the west of Britain.

 

Main damage from Florence so far is storm surge, which looks as if it's totally wrecked some inadvisably sited beach developments in NC. A bit annoying, the way that UK media were lazily assuming yesterday that because Florence had decreased to Cat 1, it wasn't going to do much damage. 

Originally Posted by: DEW 

Yes, the storm surge combined with the rain is and will continue to be the main issue with Florence.


Russwirral
15 September 2018 07:39:31

Looking rather mild over night next Monday night... shame we cant align that wedge of warm air with day time really.

 

still ~ 20*C at night in September is pretty good going.

 

Netweather GFS Image


Saint Snow
15 September 2018 13:52:48

Florence is a damp squib, innit?

How must those poor media corporations feel?


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The Beast from the East
15 September 2018 13:56:08

Florence is a damp squib, innit?

How must those poor media corporations feel?

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 

https://twitter.com/gourdnibler/status/1040678572262916096

 


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doctormog
15 September 2018 14:00:14
As mentioned before and as with Harvey last year it is not the wind that was likely to be tha big issue but the rain which will cause problems over the next couple of days with serious flooding due to the slow moving nature of the storm, the already wet ground from a very wet summer and the storm surge stopping the rivers from draining.
Brian Gaze
15 September 2018 18:17:42

Ohhh dear:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/us-news/storm-florence-weatherman-caught-out-13248189

 


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Caz
  • Caz
  • Advanced Member
15 September 2018 18:24:59

  That’s the media for you! 


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Arcus
15 September 2018 18:46:34

That's priceless. 

I almost expected him to start pretending to walk down stairs or lean on a imaginary table.


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marco 79
15 September 2018 20:38:10
I've watched some of the commentary on 'The Weather Channel' through the Florence coverage...24ct comedy entertainment in my view....it's usually streamed live on youtube....def worth a view....
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