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Offline bledur  
#921 Posted : 30 July 2019 17:40:30(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: John Mason Go to Quoted Post

 

 

You can, but imagination works both ways. I can just imagine Victor Meldrew repeating, "I don't believe it"!

 I certainly dont know , but it seems a bit fishy.

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Offline Col  
#922 Posted : 30 July 2019 17:57:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gary L Go to Quoted Post

 

I also heard the sun was out that day. Not good!

Shocking. For this reason maximum temperatures should only be recorded at night.

Edited by user 30 July 2019 18:00:33(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Col

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Offline Caz  
#923 Posted : 30 July 2019 18:50:05(UTC)
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I would think, as the Met office spent four days checking and scrutinising it, that the station meets all their required standards.  Whether or not they review their standards in the future, leaves to be seen. 

There’s one thing for certain, the next time we break the record, the question of the reading from the dodgy Cambridge station will be brought up again, like Brogdale.  

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Offline Rob K  
#924 Posted : 30 July 2019 19:41:24(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: james Go to Quoted Post

 

 

I have now confirmed that the figure used for the Cambridge Airport 38C METAR was 38.2 before rounding.

So if NIAB recorded  38.1C and the airport 38.2C it seems foolish  to quibble over another half a degree. Unlike Brogdale which seems to record about 2C higher than it "should" by all accounts.

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl.
Offline TimS  
#925 Posted : 30 July 2019 19:45:33(UTC)
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Well I suppose we can all be happy. Either Cambridge botanic garden just beat the wholly bona fide and reliable Brogdale 2003 reading, or a couple of sites in Cambridge comfortably beat the actual 38.1C record of 2003 if the “dodgy” Brogdale reading is discounted. Happy days.
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Offline LeedsLad123  
#926 Posted : 30 July 2019 20:45:58(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: james Go to Quoted Post

 

 

I have now confirmed that the figure used for the Cambridge Airport 38C METAR was 38.2 before rounding.

Gravesend and Kew are dodgy too according to someone on Netweather so they’re out. Oh and Northolt and Heathrow too. In fact, all mainland stations are unreliable. The actual record is 23C in Shetland.

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Online Retron  
#927 Posted : 31 July 2019 04:47:58(UTC)
Retron

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Originally Posted by: Rob K Go to Quoted Post

 

So if NIAB recorded  38.1C and the airport 38.2C it seems foolish  to quibble over another half a degree. Unlike Brogdale which seems to record about 2C higher than it "should" by all accounts.

Jeez - just let it go, Rob.

I've already explained why Brogdale's temperatures are higher than the nearest other stations, but as you may have missed it here we go again!

  • Faversham is located on the lee side of the North Downs and given winds from a southerly quarter is prone to a localised Foehn effect. This leads to relatively high temperatures given the right wind setup (which occurred in 2003 and again in 2019).
  • Manston is on top of a plateau - no Foehn effects
  • East Malling is on the other side of the Downs - again, no Foehn effects there

I know you won't accept it (even though the Met Office do), but please let it be an end to your moaning.

Frankly if the Met Office say a particular reading from a particular site stands, it should be good enough for everyone.

Edited by user 31 July 2019 04:49:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline JACKO4EVER  
#928 Posted : 31 July 2019 05:02:05(UTC)
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My car thermometer read 42c so that’s the new record and I plan to celebrate by watching Santa ride flying pigs at midnight. It’s great living near booze laden Melton Mowbray
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Offline Col  
#929 Posted : 31 July 2019 06:57:06(UTC)
Col

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Originally Posted by: Retron Go to Quoted Post

 

Jeez - just let it go, Rob.

I've already explained why Brogdale's temperatures are higher than the nearest other stations, but as you may have missed it here we go again!

  • Faversham is located on the lee side of the North Downs and given winds from a southerly quarter is prone to a localised Foehn effect. This leads to relatively high temperatures given the right wind setup (which occurred in 2003 and again in 2019).
  • Manston is on top of a plateau - no Foehn effects
  • East Malling is on the other side of the Downs - again, no Foehn effects there

I know you won't accept it (even though the Met Office do), but please let it be an end to your moaning.

Frankly if the Met Office say a particular reading from a particular site stands, it should be good enough for everyone.

Thing is, there will always be places that will be warmer than others under certain conditions due to local topograpy. Under the right conditions frost hollows can give night minima a lot more than 2C lower than the surrounding area. Funny how nobody ever seems to question that. It's just local topography again.

Edited by user 31 July 2019 07:30:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Col

Bolton, Lancashire

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http://www.youtube.com/c...UC3QvmL4UWBmHFMKWiwYm_gg

Offline Rob K  
#930 Posted : 31 July 2019 09:11:55(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Retron Go to Quoted Post

 

Jeez - just let it go, Rob.

I've already explained why Brogdale's temperatures are higher than the nearest other stations, but as you may have missed it here we go again!

  • Faversham is located on the lee side of the North Downs and given winds from a southerly quarter is prone to a localised Foehn effect. This leads to relatively high temperatures given the right wind setup (which occurred in 2003 and again in 2019).
  • Manston is on top of a plateau - no Foehn effects
  • East Malling is on the other side of the Downs - again, no Foehn effects there

I know you won't accept it (even though the Met Office do), but please let it be an end to your moaning.

Frankly if the Met Office say a particular reading from a particular site stands, it should be good enough for everyone.

Don't have a go at me, I'm not the one moaning about it. Just quoting the article in "Weather"!

 

As others have said, local topography means hugely varying temperatures, so what is "representative" anyway? 

The issue I have is that clearly the Met Office aren't applying their own rules, or are doing so inconsistently. Eg the bare soil at CBG, the high hedge at Brogdale. I bet if you audited all the Met Office weather stations around the country then you would find the majority break one or more of the guidelines that the Met Office are supposed to apply!

The real problem though is the constant chopping and changing of weather stations which makes it hard to compare over time - that and the number of stations that seem to be wholly or partially out of order at any one time. The price you pay for automation.

Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl.
Online Retron  
#931 Posted : 31 July 2019 09:30:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rob K Go to Quoted Post

Don't have a go at me, I'm not the one moaning about it. Just quoting the article in "Weather"!

It certainly comes off as moaning, as you keep having these little digs at it. The Met Office consider it valid, simple as that. They, not anyone writing in Weather, or UKWW, or NetWeather, or uk.sci.weather for that matter, are the arbiters of what's valid or not.

And as I've said, there are specifics in the area (I've lived nearby for 35+ years, after all) which mean the Brogdale readings make sense.

Quote:

The issue I have is that clearly the Met Office aren't applying their own rules, or are doing so inconsistently. Eg the bare soil at CBG, the high hedge at Brogdale. I bet if you audited all the Met Office weather stations around the country then you would find the majority break one or more of the guidelines that the Met Office are supposed to apply!

There will be some rules which are unbreakable (i.e. not having a Stevenson screen with a minimum of 1.5m of grass or "representative surface" in all directions around it). Then there are some which are desireable, but not essential (as per the WMO guidelines). The WMO guidelines don't, for example, explicitly forbid having bare earth almost adjacent to a screen. They don't forbid having hedges nearby, either, with regards to temperatures.

https://library.wmo.int/pmb_ged/wmo_8_en-2012.pdf

Page 20 has the specifics and yes, both sites comply with regards to temperature. It could be argued that the conditions aren't anywhere near strict enough, but as it stands they are what they are - hence the record stands.

Quote:

The real problem though is the constant chopping and changing of weather stations which makes it hard to compare over time - that and the number of stations that seem to be wholly or partially out of order at any one time. The price you pay for automation.

Now that I would agree with - for all the potential faults of the likes of Gravesend, Heathrow etc, it's better to have them than not at all. There are of course all manner of microclimates dotted around and the more coverage in general the better. It's a shame there isn't more effort put into creating new stations, as it all seems a bit lackadaisical.

Edited by user 31 July 2019 09:32:45(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline Chunky Pea  
#932 Posted : 31 July 2019 09:44:49(UTC)
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I also believe that some (though not sure if all) UK Met Office approved screens are painted black on the inside, which seems to be another unique trait. I can see the logic of this, given that black 'absorbs' heat, but this still must have some sort of an effect on temps inside the screen.
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Offline Gavin D  
#933 Posted : 31 July 2019 10:03:36(UTC)
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The met office said the overall overnight minimum record didn't go, however Brogdale shows a minimum of 24.3c in the 24hr period of July 25th to 26th

 

http://wow.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/view?&reportId=8082001&siteID=25668314

 

Offline Brian Gaze  
#934 Posted : 31 July 2019 10:11:52(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Rob K Go to Quoted Post

 

The issue I have is that clearly the Met Office aren't applying their own rules, or are doing so inconsistently. Eg the bare soil at CBG, 

Do we know what the official width of the grass border is at the CBG weather station? On the photos it looks less than 1.5m on one side at least, however it is impossible to be sure because of the angle they are taken from.  

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Offline Devonian  
#935 Posted : 31 July 2019 11:36:34(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea Go to Quoted Post
I also believe that some (though not sure if all) UK Met Office approved screens are painted black on the inside, which seems to be another unique trait. I can see the logic of this, given that black 'absorbs' heat, but this still must have some sort of an effect on temps inside the screen.

Explanation in the product description here.

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Offline Chunky Pea  
#936 Posted : 31 July 2019 13:07:26(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

 

Explanation in the product description here.

Very interesting, but certainly not cheap! 

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Offline Hungry Tiger  
#937 Posted : 31 July 2019 13:50:27(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze Go to Quoted Post

 

Do we know what the official width of the grass border is at the CBG weather station? On the photos it looks less than 1.5m on one side at least, however it is impossible to be sure because of the angle they are taken from.  

I'm tempted next time I go into Cambridge to take a photograph of the Botanical Gardens Weather Station. Hopefully they'd let me as I am a member of the Royal Meteorological Society.

Anyway I'd like to know just out of academic curiosity what it looks like.

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Offline Col  
#938 Posted : 31 July 2019 14:11:13(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger Go to Quoted Post

 

I'm tempted next time I go into Cambridge to take a photograph of the Botanical Gardens Weather Station. Hopefully they'd let me as I am a member of the Royal Meteorological Society.

Anyway I'd like to know just out of academic curiosity what it looks like.

Somone did just that and posted the picture here, most likely in this very thread. Can't remember who it was but if you search back I'm sure you will find it.

Col

Bolton, Lancashire

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http://www.youtube.com/c...UC3QvmL4UWBmHFMKWiwYm_gg

Offline andy-manc  
#939 Posted : 31 July 2019 14:42:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Col Go to Quoted Post

 

Somone did just that and posted the picture here, most likely in this very thread. Can't remember who it was but if you search back I'm sure you will find it.

It is on page 37, 4th post down. Posted by James

Offline idj20  
#940 Posted : 31 July 2019 15:01:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Hungry Tiger Go to Quoted Post

 

I'm tempted next time I go into Cambridge to take a photograph of the Botanical Gardens Weather Station. Hopefully they'd let me as I am a member of the Royal Meteorological Society.

Anyway I'd like to know just out of academic curiosity what it looks like.



Just don't mistake it for one of these . . .

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