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Saint Snow
04 September 2023 12:50:10

that is based on the fact that up until now, there has never been a cold winter on record which has came after a really warm or hot September.
 

Originally Posted by: johncs2016 




Is that correct?

There was a theory going round several years ago on here that a warm & dry September increased the chances of a cold winter. 

I suspect that, given the climate shift in the UK to Septembers being generally warmer* in the past few decades than previously, we're now more likely to get very warm Septembers (and, indeed, the synoptics that bring us a very warm September now would probably only have delivered a Sept a degree or two cooler 50 or 100 years ago.

With all these pattern-matching theories, I think the key is discerning the actual synoptics. Getting a semi-repeating broad set-up is not a new phenomenon. In terms of 'warm & dry September makes a cold winter more likely', it's important to understand why those Septembers were warm/dry and whether the resultant colder winter was the broad set-up repeating itself.

Besides all that, we're on the 4th, and the weather could be very different come the second half of the month.

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Brian Gaze
04 September 2023 13:11:50
The 60 day analogue tracker currently has the top 5 matches as:

1) 2015
2) 2021
3) 1977
4) 2011
5) 2020

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/premium/weather-analogues.aspx?dt=60days 

 
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
04 September 2023 13:31:48

The 60 day analogue tracker currently has the top 5 matches as:

1) 2015
2) 2021
3) 1977
4) 2011
5) 2020

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/premium/weather-analogues.aspx?dt=60days 

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


From https://durhamukweather.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/bonacina.html 
Year: coldest CET month; quantity of snow; months with most snowfall
2015-16;Feb 4.9; Little; DJMaA
2021-22; Jan 4.6; Little; ND
1977-78;Feb 2.8; Snowy; JF (snow with much drifting mid-Jan to mid-Feb)
2011-12; Feb 3.8; Little; JFA
2020-21; Jan 3.5; Average; DJFMa (a white Christmas in places; the period includes named storms Bella and Christopher)
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
johncs2016
04 September 2023 15:21:58

Is that correct?

There was a theory going round several years ago on here that a warm & dry September increased the chances of a cold winter. 

I suspect that, given the climate shift in the UK to Septembers being generally warmer* in the past few decades than previously, we're now more likely to get very warm Septembers (and, indeed, the synoptics that bring us a very warm September now would probably only have delivered a Sept a degree or two cooler 50 or 100 years ago.

With all these pattern-matching theories, I think the key is discerning the actual synoptics. Getting a semi-repeating broad set-up is not a new phenomenon. In terms of 'warm & dry September makes a cold winter more likely', it's important to understand why those Septembers were warm/dry and whether the resultant colder winter was the broad set-up repeating itself.

Besides all that, we're on the 4th, and the weather could be very different come the second half of the month.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


My information is based on a number of Gavin P.'s winter update videos from previous years and if you go through the analogues from those videos, you will find that there was at least one occasion when he focused on winters which followed a warm September, but was unable to find any matches for that which actually led to a cold winter.

That's all that I'm really going by here but whilst such analogues are never exactly perfect, they have been shown to be quite a valuable tool in Gavin P.'s armour when it comes to his seasonal forecasts. Indeed, there has been many times when he will virtually ignore what the models are saying in favour of those analogues and yet, he isn't often not all that far out when he comes to his actual forecasts.

This shows that he must be doing something right in that regard, and that I is why I take a lot of pride in following his lead with those warm Septembers generally not leading to cold winters as just one example of that.
 
The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Bolty
04 September 2023 15:40:57

The 60 day analogue tracker currently has the top 5 matches as:

1) 2015
2) 2021
3) 1977
4) 2011
5) 2020

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/premium/weather-analogues.aspx?dt=60days 

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 



Generally a milder bunch there, with the exception of 2020-21 which was chilly throughout and 2011-12 which went very cold for a fortnight in early February.

On the other hand 2015-16 was one of the warmest on record. That December was absolutely outrageous - warmer than any other winter month, warmer than any March on record and warmer than any November bar 1994! 1977-78 was also quite mild too, I think, though Trevor Harley's site claims that February was quite chilly.
Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
Chunky Pea
04 September 2023 15:50:37

No I didn't.

All I was saying on those other threads is that if we get a really warm or hot September, the chances of a cold winter aren't going to look very good but that is based on the fact that up until now, there has never been a cold winter on record which has came after a really warm or hot September.

As we all know very well though, you can never actually tell what the weather is going to do (which is why even the short term models get it wrong so often) so just because we've never had a cold winter after a very warm September doesn't necessarily mean that we won't actually get one this time as there is always a first time for everything.

For that reason, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that this ends up being that very year if indeed, this month does end up being a really warm or hot one, although I'm not exactly going to building my hopes up too highly for that one.
 

Originally Posted by: johncs2016 



Really just meaningless observation and speculation on my part, but I find frosty Octobers to be a telltale sign that the following winter will be very mild, while very wet November's to be more a signal for a cooler winter to come. 
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Retron
04 September 2023 15:58:12

Really just meaningless observation and speculation on my part, but I find frosty Octobers to be a telltale sign that the following winter will be very mild, while very wet November's to be more a signal for a cooler winter to come. 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 


Not far off it. The late Paul Bartlett on usw (who'd forgotten more than I'd ever know about the weather) used to look for a warm, dry October and a cold, wet November. Our climate may have warmed since then, but I still look for those same two signs. They're surprisingly rare!

(The theory is due to the building process of blocks, essentially having the Rossby waves stop in the right spot for a cold winter. I guess the basics would still apply today, even if everything's shifted north a bit in the meantime).
Leysdown, north Kent
picturesareme
04 September 2023 22:52:12

No I didn't.

All I was saying on those other threads is that if we get a really warm or hot September, the chances of a cold winter aren't going to look very good but that is based on the fact that up until now, there has never been a cold winter on record which has came after a really warm or hot September.

 

Originally Posted by: johncs2016 



I think 1906 might have something to say about that... It's probably not the only year either. 
CreweCold
05 September 2023 00:21:33

Not far off it. The late Paul Bartlett on usw (who'd forgotten more than I'd ever know about the weather) used to look for a warm, dry October and a cold, wet November. Our climate may have warmed since then, but I still look for those same two signs. They're surprisingly rare!

(The theory is due to the building process of blocks, essentially having the Rossby waves stop in the right spot for a cold winter. I guess the basics would still apply today, even if everything's shifted north a bit in the meantime).

Originally Posted by: Retron 


Yes, last December's cold spell was very well advertised by the November set up...I remember posting as much last November in the model thread.

Novembers preceding a cold spell are often wet and mild. The troughing won't progress much past the UK to the E and there is often a big HP towards Russia which acts to decelerate and buckle the jet stream.

https://modeles3.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana-era5/2022/archivesnh-2022-11-27-0-0.png 

November 2009 was another good example

https://modeles3.meteociel.fr/modeles/reana-era5/2009/archivesnh-2009-11-13-0-0.png 

If you see this set up in November then there's a very reasonable chance that December will turn cold.

Crewe, Cheshire
55 metres above sea level
White Meadows
05 September 2023 05:52:17

Is that correct?

There was a theory going round several years ago on here that a warm & dry September increased the chances of a cold winter

I suspect that, given the climate shift in the UK to Septembers being generally warmer* in the past few decades than previously, we're now more likely to get very warm Septembers (and, indeed, the synoptics that bring us a very warm September now would probably only have delivered a Sept a degree or two cooler 50 or 100 years ago.

With all these pattern-matching theories, I think the key is discerning the actual synoptics. Getting a semi-repeating broad set-up is not a new phenomenon. In terms of 'warm & dry September makes a cold winter more likely', it's important to understand why those Septembers were warm/dry and whether the resultant colder winter was the broad set-up repeating itself.

Besides all that, we're on the 4th, and the weather could be very different come the second half of the month.

Originally Posted by: Saint Snow 


I think you mean October in this instance. 

As far as pattern matching goes, if there’s any kudos due whatsoever it’s likely worth looking at the preceding month and no further away than this. 
CreweCold
05 September 2023 14:39:51
Meteofrance and EC seasonal updates out today both show lower than average heights across Europe and higher than average heights around Greenland for the winter season.

EC has been consistent with that prognosis for the past couple of updates.

https://charts.ecmwf.int/permalinks/mean-sea-level-pressure-seas5-26651 

Crewe, Cheshire
55 metres above sea level
Saint Snow
05 September 2023 14:42:51

I think you mean October in this instance. 

As far as pattern matching goes, if there’s any kudos due whatsoever it’s likely worth looking at the preceding month and no further away than this. 

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 




I think you're probably correct 😄

I'll put it down to age.

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Saint Snow
05 September 2023 14:50:10

Meteofrance and EC seasonal updates out today both show lower than average heights across Europe and higher than average heights around Greenland for the winter season.

EC has been consistent with that prognosis for the past couple of updates.

Originally Posted by: CreweCold 




I'd take that general set-up.

🤩

Martin
Home: St Helens (26m asl) Work: Manchester (75m asl)
A TWO addict since 14/12/01
"How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics."
Aneurin Bevan
Chunky Pea
05 September 2023 14:54:09
Personally, I'm hoping for a relentlessly stormy winter. The last few have been scarily benign.
Current Conditions
https://t.ly/MEYqg 


"You don't have to know anything to have an opinion"
--Roger P, 12/Oct/2022
Bolty
06 September 2023 20:34:11

Personally, I'm hoping for a relentlessly stormy winter. The last few have been scarily benign.

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 



Not so much winter but autumn certainly has become a benign season in recent years. I can't remember the last traditional properly stormy and unsettled autumn. Out of all of the seasons, I'd say autumn has changed the most.

In regards to stormy winters, one thing I have noticed is an increase in stormy Februarys: we've had quite a few of them in recent years (2014, 2017, 2020 and 2022 spring to mind). February has often long been regarded as one of the more benign months of the year, but the gradual increase in very unsettled ones lately suggests the month is seeing a change. On the flip side, December has been comparatively much more benign - certainly much more so than you would expect it to be. Maybe that's a potential future climate trend for the UK and Ireland?
Scott
Blackrod, Lancashire (4 miles south of Chorley) at 156m asl.
My weather station 
Martybhoy
07 September 2023 12:17:00
I love these threads. I’ve been visiting this site since 2009 and tend to read quite a lot as we start to approach autumn and winter, and more sporadically throughout the year. 

I don’t post much because I have absolutely zero expertise; rather I enjoy reading what knowledgeable people have to say. There’s nothing quite like the excitement when wintry models start to build up!

My only observation this year (which is meaningless) is that the Rowan berries on the trees were a little late this year and have lasted a lot longer than usual. In the past I’ve seen them come quite quickly and disappear in 2 weeks. This year they were late but have lasted a good 5 weeks. 

so if it is a cold winter we much all be looking out for the Rowan berries going forward. 😆
200m above sea level
Rural East Ayrshire
Near to the village of Sorn
Axlbert
12 September 2023 11:09:08
QBO now an easterly...
jhall
12 September 2023 19:30:08

Generally a milder bunch there, with the exception of 2020-21 which was chilly throughout and 2011-12 which went very cold for a fortnight in early February.

On the other hand 2015-16 was one of the warmest on record. That December was absolutely outrageous - warmer than any other winter month, warmer than any March on record and warmer than any November bar 1994! 1977-78 was also quite mild too, I think, though Trevor Harley's site claims that February was quite chilly.

Originally Posted by: Bolty 



Belatedly catching up. February 1978 did indeed have a notable cold spell, which included a classic West Country blizzard which was thought to be possibly the worst in the area since March 1891.
Cranleigh, Surrey
Gavin D
16 September 2023 17:28:08
Brian is going for a milder winter so far based on early data

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/weather-news/6777/winter-2023-24 
Russwirral
21 September 2023 09:16:01
This time of year I start looking at the NH sea ice extent and snowfall events around siberia

What a sorry state the Pole is looking.  Worst Ive seen in years.

Very sad.
Charmhills
21 September 2023 09:25:30
The re-freezing process is under way but sea ice is very low this year, lower than 2012 I think??
Loughborough, EM.

Knowledge is power, ignorance is weakness.

Duane.
Brian Gaze
21 September 2023 09:32:38
At this stage anyone going for a cold winter is playing a wild card.  Things could of course look different further down the line.
Brian Gaze
Berkhamsted
TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 
"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan
johncs2016
21 September 2023 10:16:47

Brian is going for a milder winter so far based on early data

https://www.theweatheroutlook.com/weather-news/6777/winter-2023-24 

Originally Posted by: Gavin D 



That wouldn't surprise me one single bit because although we have gone into an easterly QBO which would normally be an indicator that is in favour us getting a cold winter, there's just too much warm water around in our oceans just now for my liking.

We can't also forget that we had an easterly QBO two years ago, but still couldn't get a cold winter from that and yet, last winter was a bit colder, especially in December despite that being a westerly QBO winter (which would normally go against us getting a cold winter).

I'm pleased that the NE Pacific Ocean has cooled down a bit recently, but we are now in a positive IOD situation in the Indian Ocean which is very concerning indeed because the last time that happened, that was largely blamed for the very mild winter which we ended up getting with that in place.

In addition to that, it now looks as though we will also go into the winter with a moderate or possibly, strong El Nino in the Equatorial Pacific Ocean. If that develops into a centrally based (Modoki) El Nino, that could slightly improve our chances of a cold winter.

However, I'm not holding my breath out for that in any way. Finally, there has been a lot of discussion in the Model Output and September CET threads about whether or not, this month could end up being the warmest September on record.

Even if that doesn't actually end up being happening in the end, the very fact that this matter is even being discussed comes down to the fact that this has been a very warm month, and that is also very concerning as far as the general outlook for the coming winter is concerned because those of you who have followed Gavin P.'s excellent winter update videos over the years will know very well that warm Septembers don't generally bode very well when it comes to our prospects of getting a cold winter (Mark Vogan has also backed that up in one or two of his own recent videos).

When you add all of that together and when you also consider that we have also entered into a very active phase within Solar Cycle 25, I still can't see us actually getting a cold winter even though we've managed to get an active Atlantic Hurricane season this time despite that on-going El Nino (active Atlantic hurricane seasons tend to act in our favour in terms of us getting a cold winter).

I could easily be wrong with that prediction of course and so, it's always possible that we could still get a cold winter anyway. However, this is an occasion where I'm now hoping that I am wrong in that regard.
 
The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
johncs2016
21 September 2023 10:19:54

The re-freezing process is under way but sea ice is very low this year, lower than 2012 I think??

Originally Posted by: Charmhills 



Not according to Gavin P. in his last winter update video, but I do agree with you that the state of the Arctic sea ice is very concerning once again.
 
The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Gavin D
02 October 2023 08:55:26
ECMWF going for below average snowfall this winter as a whole

However, the monthly breakdown shows a slowly improving picture for Jan and Feb

https://www.severe-weather.eu/long-range-2/winter-2023-2024-seasonal-snowfall-predictions-forecast-update-united-states-canada-europe-fa/ 

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