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four
  • four
  • Advanced Member
17 February 2025 16:32:37

 Win, win, win.

Originally Posted by: Devonian 


There'd be the major downside of having to deal with Natural England or someone else and its stuffed with people who have the same grotesquely antagonistic pious attitudes.

Cutting growth with flail if it's more than a year old results in spiky chunks that fly for yards and are spectacularly good at causing punctures.
Despite your odd opinion this is also a good way to get a hedge that resembles a line of stumps.
Blackthorn will create a wonderful dense stockproof barrier if trimmed annually.

The laying instead of flailing, well there are some advantages but it is quite a major disadvantage that to do say a 100 metre length would take days if not weeks and is frankly damned cold hard work especially if you aren't in the flush of youth.
Whereas it could be trimmed on a bitter winter day from a heated tractor cab in about ten minutes.
Then of course a hedge that has been laid isn't stockproof for several years so you also need fencing usually both sides which is several more days hours if not days of work and £100s in materials.
Hmmm tricky one.
North York Moors weather 
Devonian
17 February 2025 16:38:52

There'd be the major downside of having to deal with Natural England or someone else and its stuffed with people who have the same grotesquely antagonistic pious attitudes.

Cutting growth with flail if it's more than a year old results in spiky chunks that fly for yards and are spectacularly good at causing punctures.
Despite your odd opinion this is also a good way to get a hedge that resembles a line of stumps.
Blackthorn will create a wonderful dense stockproof barrier if trimmed annually.

The laying instead of flailing, well there are some advantages but it is quite a major disadvantage that to do say a 100 metre length would take days if not weeks and is frankly damned cold hard work especially if you aren't in the flush of youth.
Whereas it could be trimmed on a bitter winter day from a heated tractor cab in about ten minutes.
Then of course a hedge that has been laid isn't stockproof for several years so you also need fencing usually both sides which is several more days hours if not days of work and £100s in materials.
Hmmm tricky one.

Originally Posted by: four 


We (to sneer back, sneering being your preferred language) aren't you 'the smart one' for not going for the Stewardship we did then....




Roger Parsons
17 February 2025 16:46:21
Four - The Lincolnshire saying under these conditions is "More runny noses than stannin' cocks!" or "Up to yer guts in squad!"
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
17 February 2025 18:05:46
AFAIK, you can get well-maintained and stockproof hedges by flailing, but only if you trim them to an 'A' shape so growth can regenerate from the base. Why farmers trim the sides vertically, I don't know, as it inevitably leads to a weak base and 'topknots'. Tidiness? Ease of flailing? Ignorance? Meanness in sacrificing a few feet of land? Too late now for most hedges.

I stand to be corrected and probably criticised into the bargain.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Devonian
17 February 2025 18:14:59

AFAIK, you can get well-maintained and stockproof hedges by flailing, but only if you trim them to an 'A' shape so growth can regenerate from the base. Why farmers trim the sides vertically, I don't know, as it inevitably leads to a weak base and 'topknots'. Tidiness? Ease of flailing? Ignorance? Meanness in sacrificing a few feet of land? Too late now for most hedges.

I stand to be corrected and probably criticised into the bargain.

Originally Posted by: DEW 


I think what tends to happen is that trees and shrubs flailed to the same height every year obviously develop thicker stems and thus smaller growth gets crowded out. The tendency of for a hedge to become dominated by stems/trunks. I can see the effect on hedges where I live.

The other crucial point is that flailing every year cuts of both any eggs laid on last years new growth but (in the case of thorns) flowers too as flowers are not on new wood. But on our hedge, only flailed every other year, you can see last years blackthorn twigs are festooned with flowers.

Further, hedges that have been laid develop new growth at the base of the hedge by the hedgelaying cuts  - this thickens the hedge and invigorates it.

To be clear I AM NOT against flailing, but I am against flailing every year. I am also not against flailing roadside hedge every year - they need to be safe.
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
17 February 2025 18:30:23
A dispassionate study though it takes time to absorb:
[color=var(--bs-body-color)]https://hedgelink.org.uk/cms/cms_content/files/74_the_economics_of_sustainable_hedge_cutting_%28cranfield_university_1995%29.pdf[/color]

and from [color=var(--bs-body-color)]https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/17598/SPECIFICATIONS-Hedgerow-management.pdf[/color]
Shape
An ‘A’ shaped or topped ‘A’ shaped hedge has advantages for wildlife. An ‘A’ shape
promotes thick growth at the hedge base which is important for food and shelter for
wildlife. A shaped hedges also provide an effective wind break, directing the wind over
the hedge. Tall, thick hedges with woody outgrowths are of the greatest value for
breeding birds. A rectangular shape normally means that one side of the hedge is
severely shaded, which will inhibit growth.

War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Devonian
17 February 2025 18:44:02

A dispassionate study though it takes time to absorb:
[color=var(--bs-body-color)]https://hedgelink.org.uk/cms/cms_content/files/74_the_economics_of_sustainable_hedge_cutting_%28cranfield_university_1995%29.pdf[/color]

and from [color=var(--bs-body-color)]https://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0030/17598/SPECIFICATIONS-Hedgerow-management.pdf[/color]
Shape
An ‘A’ shaped or topped ‘A’ shaped hedge has advantages for wildlife. An ‘A’ shape
promotes thick growth at the hedge base which is important for food and shelter for
wildlife. A shaped hedges also provide an effective wind break, directing the wind over
the hedge. Tall, thick hedges with woody outgrowths are of the greatest value for
breeding birds. A rectangular shape normally means that one side of the hedge is
severely shaded, which will inhibit growth.

Originally Posted by: DEW 


Don't doubt it.

But, in my part of Devon 'A' shaped hedges are unusual as the hedge usually grows on some sort of rectangular soil/stone bank.

And for me (as I'm increasingly concerned about wildlife) it's to not flail all new growth off every year that is important.

NMA
  • NMA
  • Advanced Member
18 February 2025 07:50:46
I did an A Level study on telling the age of a hedge by the number of plant species within it. The more species, the older the hedge supposedly. At the time there was a theory that flaying hedges encouraged disease to enter through the flailed cut bits and that this would result within a few years of the death of all flayed British hedges.  I think there was some anthropomorphic theorising going on here with flailed cuts being similar to rough chops on human flesh and thus easier for disease to enter the entity. Or something like that. A bit like it was popular not so long ago to paint over the wood saw cuts to stop disease organisms entering tree branches. Fruit trees in particular. Now largely debunked I believe. You could buy tins of special paint to brush over these cuts.

But as the years passed after flails become standard pieces of farm equipment, this appeared not to be the case. Flailed hedges regrew perfectly well whether flailed or trimmed with a reciprocating cutter.

You can certainly notice the skill set of flail operators from the way hedges look after a trim.
Some operators are botched butchers and make a mess of the job. Occasionally I’ll come across an incredibly neat A shaped hedge. A classic in TLC as you go through Affpuddle to the Puddletown bypass near me.
A real mess of a cut though as you head towards Osmington from the Owermoigne bypass. Most of you won’t know these of course but they are there and I’m sure you can see plenty of examples of both if you drive around. But yes I would agree for certain butterflies you need to trim on a two year basis. It can be achieved well enough if staggered.
Vale of the Great Dairies
South Dorset
Elevation 60m 197ft
+1
Devonian
18 February 2025 09:04:22
I went to a talk about hedgerows recently that was, loosely, based upon the leaflet in the link. It was all very enlightening and it further convinced me that flailing isn't good for long term hedge viability - at least from a hedges being linear nature reserves and corridors perspective..
https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Healthy-hedgerows-on-your-land-leaflet-2023.pdf 
+1
Roger Parsons
18 February 2025 09:28:05

I went to a talk about hedgerows recently that was, loosely, based upon the leaflet in the link. It was all very enlightening and it further convinced me that flailing isn't good for long term hedge viability - at least from a hedges being linear nature reserves and corridors perspective..
https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Healthy-hedgerows-on-your-land-leaflet-2023.pdf 

Originally Posted by: Devonian 


Folks may not appreciate that some bats use hedgerows for navigation in otherwise featureless agricultural landscapes, and breaks in familiar hedges are from their pov a bloody nuisance. One example:
https://www.devonwildlifetrust.org/sites/default/files/2021-01/Hedges.pdf 

RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
+2
NMA
  • NMA
  • Advanced Member
18 February 2025 10:39:52
There is an interesting double layered hedge (work in progress) in one of the Devon pictures. It's the incredible labour you need to do this that’s an issue.
Vale of the Great Dairies
South Dorset
Elevation 60m 197ft
+1
Roger Parsons
19 February 2025 07:58:57
Following on from my posts about Black-headed Gulls - I have noted the following behaviour in our local "flock". They patrol the area regularly, in particular those places where there are likely to be "rich pickings". Our garden is one - we are always under surveillence. One or two stay perched in the area on roofs and chimneys about the village - alert for action. They know my routine, the the sound of unlocking the back door or drawing of a curtain. They know me by sight and call to say when I'm about. If I throw some scraps onto the lawn a whirlwind of gulls moves in immediately, screaming.  They all try to get a piece of food but there's always one or two who take things to a new level. They are not content to take their turn and get their share. Instead they land and try to grab as much food as they can, sometimes 10x what others manage to do.
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
Devonian
19 February 2025 08:08:09

Following on from my posts about Black-headed Gulls - I have noted the following behaviour in our local "flock". They patrol the area regularly, in particular those places where there are likely to be "rich pickings". Our garden is one - we are always under surveillence. One or two stay perched in the area on roofs and chimneys about the village - alert for action. They know my routine, the the sound of unlocking the back door or drawing of a curtain. They know me by sight and call to say when I'm about. If I throw some scraps onto the lawn a whirlwind of gulls moves in immediately, screaming.  They all try to get a piece of food but there's always one or two who take things to a new level. They are not content to take their turn and get their share. Instead they land and try to grab as much food as they can, sometimes 10x what others manage to do.

Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons 


I have to admit I like gulls. They're colourful, they have beautiful knowing eyes, they treat humans with the disrespect a species that shows other species disrespect deserves, they are intelligent, resourceful and patient. The one at school had a habit of perching high and looking disdainfully, condescendingly, contemptuously down at us. Humans deserve such treatment.
+1
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
22 February 2025 09:28:28
You saw it on TWO first!

Scientists probe gulls' 'weird and wonderful' appetites
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c2erkry8jn8o 
University of Salford ecologist Dr Alice Risely wants people to upload their snaps of hungry gulls to the project's website, Gulls Eating Stuff.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
+1
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
22 February 2025 09:34:17
On  a related topic, another urban pest is the squirrel. I'm being wound up because I've recently bought a bulk quantity of birdfood, only to find the squirrel knows when I put it out  and is there scoffing it five minutes later. Do I...

- put it out at a different time (the squirrel will take perhaps three days to work that out)?
- connect the wire cage round the bird table, fitted to discourage another pest i.e. pigeons , to the electricity mains?
- buy an air rifle?
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
doctormog
22 February 2025 09:53:17
There are some excellent wildlife photos here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm2d8mrlp8vo 

Aberdeen
Current conditions (personal WS) 
+1
Roger Parsons
22 February 2025 11:59:19

On  a related topic, another urban pest is the squirrel. I'm being wound up because I've recently bought a bulk quantity of birdfood, only to find the squirrel knows when I put it out  and is there scoffing it five minutes later. Do I...

- put it out at a different time (the squirrel will take perhaps three days to work that out)?
- connect the wire cage round the bird table, fitted to discourage another pest i.e. pigeons , to the electricity mains?
- buy an air rifle?

Originally Posted by: DEW 


I tolerate our local grey squirrel, making sure feeders can't be knocked to the ground.  Reducing the quantity of feed helps - so the birds get most of it and also clear the "deck" before the sq turns up. Use of an air rifle depends on degree of risk to the public. In my last place I bought a squirrel trap and executed the victims IRA style in the trap. No need for marksmanship. No risk to anything else. Some people here drown them in a water butt - just dropping the trap in - but I've not got to that stage of desperation yet. You could try baffles. e.g.
https://www.arkwildlife.co.uk/collections/squirrel-baffles 
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
22 February 2025 16:16:39

On  a related topic, another urban pest is the squirrel. I'm being wound up because I've recently bought a bulk quantity of birdfood, only to find the squirrel knows when I put it out  and is there scoffing it five minutes later. Do I...

- put it out at a different time (the squirrel will take perhaps three days to work that out)?
- connect the wire cage round the bird table, fitted to discourage another pest i.e. pigeons , to the electricity mains?
- buy an air rifle?

Originally Posted by: DEW 


Only joking - though my father-in-law, an otherwise mild-mannered minister did have one and took potshots in urban London😮😮😮
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Roger Parsons
22 February 2025 16:40:47

Only joking - though my father-in-law, an otherwise mild-mannered minister did have one and took potshots in urban London😮😮😮

Originally Posted by: DEW 


Folks do use weapons unwisely and in unsuitable places. I gave away my air rifle when I moved to the middle of this village, overlooking The Green! A gamekeeper friend was wanting to get a grandson his first air rifle - so this was the obvious solution. We had a rat problem at our last place. One used to feed from the enamel bowl we used for the duck food. So one day I shot it when feeding at the bowl and the ducks went crackers. The were really cross. I had not known they regarded it as a friend. It was warning quacks for weeks whenever they saw me!   🦆🦆🦆🐀
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830
DEW
  • DEW
  • Advanced Member
23 February 2025 17:07:55
Besides the planted flowers (daffodils, snowdrops, crocuses) I noticed this morning in the more unkempt parts of the city, in flower, violets, lesser celandines and periwinkle, not to forget the inevitable groundsel.
War does not determine who is right, only who is left - Bertrand Russell

Chichester 12m asl
Windy Willow
23 February 2025 17:29:35

Besides the planted flowers (daffodils, snowdrops, crocuses) I noticed this morning in the more unkempt parts of the city, in flower, violets, lesser celandines and periwinkle, not to forget the inevitable groundsel.

Originally Posted by: DEW 


On our drive out to the Wash this afternoon there were plenty of field workers bring in the crops of Daffodils ready to go the shops, no doubt. Quite a lot of fields with those in up this way.
Wildly though there's plenty of Snowdrops and crocuses in bloom but no wild daffodils blooming yet. It won't be too much longer though, just some warmth and sun and I'm sure they'll be on display.
I did get to see a golden pheasant darting across a filed though.
South Holland, Lincs 5m/16ft ASL

When I saw corruption, I was forced to find truth on my own. I couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.

Barry White


It’s the end of the world as we know it (and I feel fine) - R.E.M.
+1
Roger Parsons
04 March 2025 14:40:19
We have started watching The Americas. Fantastic programme, spoiled only by an unexplained issue with the variable audibility of narration - see if you find that too. It's Hearing aids in and volume up - then Too loud, turn vol back down! Narrated by Tom Hanks.

chttps://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0028nf0/the-americasreatures  call home.
RogerP
West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire
Everything taken together, here in Lincolnshire are more good things than man could have had the conscience to ask.
William Cobbett, in his Rural Rides - c.1830

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