The Weather Outlook

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bledur
23 September 2016 07:58:06

There will be surprises for many this winter, definitely not a wet and mild winter like last year.

Originally Posted by: four 

Eh? What are you basing that prediction on?

Maunder Minimum
23 September 2016 10:41:08

Eh? What are you basing that prediction on?

Originally Posted by: bledur 

Well, I have been looking in the sheep entrails and there are some hopeful indicators at the moment:

  1. Solar activity is weak and on a downward path to the next minimum.
  2. ENSO is broadly neutral.
  3. Speculation about the QBO is positive.
  4. Purely anecdotal, but from my own experience, an Indian summer as we have recently been experiencing, is often followed by a proper winter.

 


New world order coming.
bledur
23 September 2016 18:45:45

 

Well, I have been looking in the sheep entrails and there are some hopeful indicators at the moment:

  1. Solar activity is weak and on a downward path to the next minimum.
  2. ENSO is broadly neutral.
  3. Speculation about the QBO is positive.
  4. Purely anecdotal, but from my own experience, an Indian summer as we have recently been experiencing, is often followed by a proper winter.

 

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

Well you might well be right , but i would lean more towards what Spring Sunshine posted in that we are in a generally warm spell and any cold interludes will be brief.

Solar Cycles
23 September 2016 18:49:44
The weather makes a fool out of us all but if GLOSEA5 is still consistently showing a more blocked pattern than the previous handful of winters come November, then the odds on such a scenairo would increase significantly.
Whether Idle
23 September 2016 19:17:00

 

Well, I have been looking in the sheep entrails

 

Originally Posted by: Maunder Minimum 

Good to know I'm not alone in that one then.

The entrail patterns  here indicate a  colder drier winter is a possibility. 

Further updates as more sheep are slain towards the end of November.


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Chunky Pea
24 September 2016 21:23:09

The weather makes a fool out of us all but if GLOSEA5 is still consistently showing a more blocked pattern than the previous handful of winters come November, then the odds on such a scenairo would increase significantly.

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 

 

Maybe, but this time last year, GLOSEA5 charts showed a tendency for blocking for the following winter months with drier than average conditions, and look how that turned out. I think while these charts are fun to look at, they are not worth the paper they are printed on. Same goes for the ECMWF 'seasonal' outlooks too. Our own met service here in Ireland came out a couple of years ago and said they were useless, and I'd take their word for it.

 


Patrick,

East Galway, Ireland.

Solar Cycles
25 September 2016 08:36:43

 

 

Maybe, but this time last year, GLOSEA5 charts showed a tendency for blocking for the following winter months with drier than average conditions, and look how that turned out. I think while these charts are fun to look at, they are not worth the paper they are printed on. Same goes for the ECMWF 'seasonal' outlooks too. Our own met service here in Ireland came out a couple of years ago and said they were useless, and I'd take their word for it.

 

Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea 

This years starting point though is much different to last and talk of the GLOSEA5 picking up early  signals of a Canadian warming event in the Stratospehre which is generally tends to lead to more favourable conditions for HLB this side of the Atlantic. Still much too early IMO for any concrete signals one way or the other but with ENSO, Soalr output and the above all possibly being in a more favourable position at this stage then at least we're not yet writing the first two thirds of winter off, just yet. 😜

some faraway beach
25 September 2016 08:39:36
I agree with that, Chunky Pea. When you look at the diverging spaghetti produced by the GEFS and the ECM ensembles at the 15-day mark, it's very hard to give much credibility to what is basically the same runs extended to 15 weeks or more.

Maybe one day in the future, when computing power is developed to enable these models to be run thousands of times an hour every hour, then the resulting percentages for months in the future might be significant. But even then I the basic knowledge of all the input factors required at a seasonal level might still be lacking. The admission that most of these models never generate a QBO is telling, I think.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.

Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.

Solar Cycles
25 September 2016 08:44:55

I agree with that, Chunky Pea. When you look at the diverging spaghetti produced by the GEFS and the ECM ensembles at the 15-day mark, it's very hard to give much credibility to what is basically the same runs extended to 15 weeks or more.

Maybe one day in the future, when computing power is developed to enable these models to be run thousands of times an hour every hour, then the resulting percentages for months in the future might be significant. But even then I the basic knowledge of all the input factors required at a seasonal level might still be lacking. The admission that most of these models never generate a QBO is telling, I think.

Originally Posted by: some faraway beach 

Dont underestimate the EC seasonal or GLOSEA5, at this time of year there's too many pieces of the jigsaw missing but come November if they're still showing a similar scenairo then the chance of that being right are significantly higher than now. The GLOSEA model is thee best long range tool bar none IMO.

25 September 2016 10:15:08

As has already been said, we have a rather unusual QBO setup at present. Having had a westerly QBO last winter we would normally expect to see an easterly QBO by now. The QBO did nearly turn easterly in April (reaching 0.64) before turning very positive again and reaching 10.07 in August.

It is not unprecedented to have a lengthy positive QBO period and also not unprecedented to see a double peak in the QBO. But we have never seen the QBO return to essentially zero before rising strongly to a double peak.

Currently we have seen 15 consecutive months of positive QBO. It is likely September will be positive as well giving us 16 consecutive months. Looking back into the archives since 1950 the maximum number of positive QBO months in succession has been 16 (three times). So history tells us we might expect the QBO to starting trending negative by October or November. It will be interesting to see what happens.

The table below shows periods since 1950 with at least 14 consecutive months of positive QBO. I have included in the table details of the month in which the QBO went negative and also details of the temperatures in the CET area for the following winter, together with the ENSO state and sun spot state.

What we see is typically that long positive QBO periods tend to come to an end around May or June. 2016 will clearly be quite different.

Interestingly the majority of the years in the table were followed by a winter that experienced El Nino conditions. Only one had La Nina conditions. There were three neutral years of which two were in a phase moving from negative to positive ENSO state so not similar to this year. 1961/2 is very different. The following winter of 1962/3 saw a neutral but steady ENSO with a slightly negative figure. That might be similar to what we see this year. But this did not follow a major El Nino event.

In terms of temperature we see a number of years with one or more cold months in the following winter. Generally the cold conditions coincide with low sun spot numbers which is not surprising. The main exception being the winter of 1981/2.

So none of these years are especially similar to this year other than having a very long run of positive QBO months. There is only one year since 1950 where the QBO turned negative towards the end of the calendar year. This was 1995 when the QBO went negative in November. That winter was very cold and did have low sun spots. It was a La Nina winter as well. There had only been 11 consecutive positive QBO months but overall it is probably the closest match to 2016.

I don't take too much out of this look back at the archives in terms of what it might mean for this winter. But I think if sunspot numbers are very low during this winter then there is a fairly good chance of seeing some cold weather at some point.

some faraway beach
25 September 2016 15:21:04
Great work, GW. It could all prove irrelevant in light of the peculiar behaviour of this phase of the QBO, but if the easterly phase does begin in the next couple of months, then a 1995-6 type of winter could just be on the cards. That was a properly good one, as there seemed to be several cold spells throughout. I was travelling around the country working outside most of that winter, and the abiding memory is not so much the snow (though I have photos which say there was some decent coverage down here), but more the leaden, grey skies and biting wind - a real, miserable UK winter. Great stuff.

But I do worry that everything will be scuppered by the two one-off events (the failure of the QBO to turn easterly when it looked like doing so, and the huge Blob of anomalously warm surface temps in the N Pacific, which appeared at the same time as our last two hopeless winters - are the Blob and the strange QBO by any chance related?). Would love to be proven completely wrong though.


2 miles west of Taunton, 32 m asl, where "milder air moving in from the west" becomes SNOWMAGEDDON.

Well, two or three times a decade it does, anyway.

Brian Gaze
25 September 2016 17:53:52

Interesting snippet from Cohen:

Given that sea ice is running below normal, this currently favors more extensive Siberian snow cover in the coming months, followed by a strengthened Siberian high and a weakened polar vortex/negative AO this upcoming winter.  The lowest sea ice years – 2007 and 2012 were both followed by a strengthened Siberian high the following winter but differences in the location and orientation resulted in different patterns of temperature anomalies across Eurasia.

http://www.aer.com/science-research/climate-weather/arctic-oscillation


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

White Meadows
25 September 2016 19:18:39

Really fascinating post from Global Warming, thank you.

With solar activity at it's lowest in a century, we might not even need a negative QBO for some serious bouts of cold.

The Maunder Minimum is also known as the 'prolonged sunspot minimum' for good reason.

pdiddy
25 September 2016 20:09:20

is there a link to the Met O seasonal forecast pls?

Gavin P
25 September 2016 20:25:04

is there a link to the Met O seasonal forecast pls?

Originally Posted by: pdiddy 

Here you go P;

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/seasonal-to-decadal/gpc-outlooks/ens-mean

You can find the link to this and many other seasonal models on my "Links" page, BTW

http://www.gavsweathervids.com/links.html

Fascinating update from GW BTW! 

 


Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ https://www.youtube.com/user/GavsWeatherVids

nouska
25 September 2016 21:57:36

is there a link to the Met O seasonal forecast pls?

Originally Posted by: pdiddy 

Here's last winter forecast pdf from the Met office. Issued end of November '15 it shows the conditions being assessed.

http://medcof.aemet.es/images/doc_events/medcof5/docMedcof5/presentaciones/MedCOF5_Brookshaw.pdf

There's a couple of interesting graphics - page 10 shows the GloSea5 strat forecast with the ensemble members and page 14 shows the NH pattern anticipated for winter as a whole. To compare, I've also done the DJF Z500 anomalies on the ESRL reanalysis.

http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/cgi-bin/data/composites/printpage.pl

 

 

tallyho_83
25 September 2016 23:01:28

Simon Keeling's update - only show's hints of milder weather in December' but generally unsettled with wind and rain, so not quite the anti-cyclonic conditions or drier December the models on Gav weather videos had forecasted. http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-app/reports?LANG=en&REPORT=seasonaloutlook&DAY=20160925

However, it is September so this should all be taken as a foot of salt ha! :)


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

Gavin D
26 September 2016 11:04:05
WSI are going for a slightly Slightly colder than normal December after a warmer than normal October and November

https://business.weather.com/blog/the-weather-company-warm-autumn-northern-europe-cooler-south 

Whether Idle
26 September 2016 17:41:44

WSI are going for a slightly Slightly colder than normal December after a warmer than normal October and November

Originally Posted by: Gavin D 

">https://business.weather.com/blog/the-weather-company-warm-autumn-northern-europe-cooler-south

For December this (from the above link):

December:•Nordic Region – Warmer than normal
•UK – Slightly colder than normal
•Northern Mainland – Warmer than normal east, slightly colder than normal west
•Southern Mainland – Warmer than normal east, slightly colder than normal west

would indicate to me either UK being anticyclone dominated, or more likely, with eastern Europe being warmer than usual, a meridonal jet with UK and Ireland in the cooler Pm plunge and Eastern Europe in a more southerly based regime....

 


Dover, 5m asl. Half a mile from the south coast.
Gooner
26 September 2016 21:00:04

Simon Keeling's update - only show's hints of milder weather in December' but generally unsettled with wind and rain, so not quite the anti-cyclonic conditions or drier December the models on Gav weather videos had forecasted. http://www.weatheronline.co.uk/cgi-app/reports?LANG=en&REPORT=seasonaloutlook&DAY=20160925

However, it is September so this should all be taken as a foot of salt ha! :)

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

Load of tosh

And id be saying that no matter what that forecast was.

Those forecasts should always have JFF after them


Remember anything after T120 is really Just For Fun



Marcus

Banbury

North Oxfordshire

378 feet A S L



Brian Gaze
26 September 2016 21:29:35

But a Met Office spokesman told the Mirror the three-month forecast currently had "no strong bias towards any significant snow event... or particularly cold spell".

"We are expecting a fairly normal British winter," the spokesman said.

"All signals seem to be a very average winter. It is looking pretty average."

 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

the converted
26 September 2016 21:50:03

But a Met Office spokesman told the Mirror the three-month forecast currently had "no strong bias towards any significant snow event... or particularly cold spell".

"We are expecting a fairly normal British winter," the spokesman said.

"All signals seem to be a very average winter. It is looking pretty average."

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

,  How acccurate is the Mirror?

Tractor Boy
27 September 2016 07:12:59

But a Met Office spokesman told the Mirror the three-month forecast currently had "no strong bias towards any significant snow event... or particularly cold spell".

"We are expecting a fairly normal British winter," the spokesman said.

"All signals seem to be a very average winter. It is looking pretty average."

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

 

I can see the headlines now...

 

"BRITAIN SET FOR 4 MONTHS OF EXTREMELY AVERAGE CONDITIONS!!!"

"EXPERTS WARN OF BRUTALLY AVERAGE WINTER!!!"


Dave

Farndale, North York Moors

Solar Cycles
27 September 2016 07:46:14

 

 

I can see the headlines now...

 

"BRITAIN SET FOR 4 MONTHS OF EXTREMELY AVERAGE CONDITIONS!!!"

"EXPERTS WARN OF BRUTALLY AVERAGE WINTER!!!"

Originally Posted by: Tractor Boy 

It'll still be an improvement on the last few for sure. 😜

Solar Cycles
27 September 2016 07:50:54

The MetO contingency forecasts certainly sets the cat amongst the pigeons with them going for below average temps and above average heights to our North/West for November/December.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/media/pdf/1/p/Forecast-temp-OND-v1.pdf

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