The Weather Outlook

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Phil G
22 January 2019 11:20:26

Talking about the GFS medium term here. To the north of us there are a number of little features forecasted and each run seems to have a different outcome from one or two of these causing a different ending. Winds are backing more northerly than NW at times. The cold out to the NE became closer to us earlier on and probably resulted in the better outcome this time round.
All I would say, there are reams of data from our usual Atlantic influence, but much less from other directions.
Very interesting model watching coming up and how this plays out with many changes still expected. Certainly there seems to be a very unstable airstream heading our way from a northerly component which may deliver some surprises.

nsrobins
22 January 2019 11:32:58
It’s (IMBY) annoying how the limpit Az high continues to fail to properly link to Greenland once again.

This might be the story of winter 18/19 - promised so much, delivered (again IMBY) so little.

This is not a WIO post by the way. I’ll take another look at the end of the week.


Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

Rob K
22 January 2019 12:28:05
GFSP is again insanely snowy for the northern half of the country, North York Moors etc would be buried in that set up. For the south though, I think I am only a few days away from throwing in the towel completely. The snow gods just don't want to play this year.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

Brian Gaze
22 January 2019 12:34:11

It’s (IMBY) annoying how the limpit Az high continues to fail to properly link to Greenland once again.
This might be the story of winter 18/19 - promised so much, delivered (again IMBY) so little.
This is not a WIO post by the way. I’ll take another look at the end of the week.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

 In December the computer models were sending it to Scandinavia. In January to Greenland. Sadly it had a mind of its own and decided anything north of Coventry wasn't very appealing.


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

JOHN NI
22 January 2019 12:54:06
I notice the 0600 GFS ensembles are starting to show an increasing number of less cold/milder options in the medium to longer term as well. Follows the pattern of the winter so far with what looks to be cold in FI being significantly watered down near the time.
John.

The orange County of Armagh.

White Meadows
22 January 2019 13:16:30

I notice the 0600 GFS ensembles are starting to show an increasing number of less cold/milder options in the medium to longer term as well. Follows the pattern of the winter so far with what looks to be cold in FI being significantly watered down near the time.

Originally Posted by: JOHN NI 

Yes the trend started yesterday with finer clarity, despite some wilfully ignoring the signal and ridiculing those for suggesting as such. Not great for coldies, it feels.

DPower
22 January 2019 13:23:09

 

But many have said that's what we look for for a true major SSW is to see the PV split!? Which was what happened hence zonal winds reversal so you're saying that the split in the PV isn't helping?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

You are quite right and despite what some may be saying the split occurred in an ideal location for us. The recent model teases are down to the fact the models are struggling with the slow downward propagation of the -u winds into the troposphere. For the past two weeks or so the models have been over progressive with their timings and have had to back track.

What we are now biginning to see from the models could very well be the real deal and ties in with the latest NAM plots. If so we shoud see a stronger trend to northern blocking and southerly tracking lows and keep an eye on pressure building from the east and north east linking up to ridge building north in th Atlantic.

LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
22 January 2019 13:55:35

.

Yeah, it looks very good on today's 00z GFS, UKMO, ECMWF and the ICON etc etc.

Roll on cold and wet and also cold and snowy predictions.

This coming Saturday evening, to Sunday (Jan. 26th and Jan. 27th) look very interesting with Cold NW and North winds across the UK.

Tuesday PM on Jan. 29th, more heavy rain turning to snow, and that brings us to Jan. 30th, with blustery wintry showers for much of the UK.

And maybe further windy and cold weather on Thursday the 31st with more Deep Low Pressure from our SW, cold air in charge across the UK, with a short interlude less cold on Wednesday night I think.

Even on the Monday- North and NW winds, with more chance of wintry showers for many, especially further North and in the SE and NE parts, and NW areas too.

This is very good upgrade from ECMWF and UKMO, and GFS is and ICON is backing them up.

But from T192, circa Tuesday to Wednesday this needs further discussion and analysis updates, the ICON for after 180 needs further discussion, as the Newfoundland Low seems very big in NW Atlantic at 192hrs, Jan. 30th.

.


Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.

Russwirral
22 January 2019 15:59:36

Interesting how that milder air toppler doesnt seem so strong as it did the other day.... the faintest hint that an easterly might try and sneak in.

 

Netweather GFS Image

its amazing how close that comes to developing into a scandi hi.  All the pieces are there... it just needs the right isobars to join hands.  Potentially very very interesting


Russwirral
22 January 2019 16:28:15
idj20
22 January 2019 16:31:01

The Azores and Greeny highs are really trying their hardest to link up, but that jet stream ribbon refuses to be cut that easily.


Home location: Folkestone Harbour.
doctormog
22 January 2019 16:34:20

I notice the 0600 GFS ensembles are starting to show an increasing number of less cold/milder options in the medium to longer term as well. Follows the pattern of the winter so far with what looks to be cold in FI being significantly watered down near the time.

Originally Posted by: JOHN NI 

That must be a locality based thing John as, if anything, the 06z GEFS suite here was colder than previous runs. At very worst as cold with decent agreement.

For the benefit of White Meadows this is just fact not interpretation.


nsrobins
22 January 2019 16:41:09
I confess GFS is trying its hardest to deliver a general snow event later next week - the caveat being ‘later next week’ which is an age at the moment.
Neil

Fareham, Hampshire 28m ASL (near estuary)

Stormchaser, Member TORRO

doctormog
22 January 2019 16:48:42

I confess GFS is trying its hardest to deliver a general snow event later next week - the caveat being ‘later next week’ which is an age at the moment.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

The NH profile in general I think has been improving over the last couple of runs. Although maybe that's just my take on things. 


Rob K
22 January 2019 16:57:15

I confess GFS is trying its hardest to deliver a general snow event later next week - the caveat being ‘later next week’ which is an age at the moment.

Originally Posted by: nsrobins 

This one is custom designed for us Hampshire folk, Neil!

 

 

 

I'll believe it when I see it!


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
22 January 2019 17:32:53

Is there going to be both Cyclonic and also NW winds, for the next 8 days.  There is not much interest in 12z UKMO, as NW flows and direct Low Pressure brings more rain rather than snow.

All eyes on what may happen on the Wednesday 30th and beyond.

When is this not so wintry but modern winter 6-8 degrees C going to give way to anything better.

Not much frost to expect and not much snow, for the Southern half of the UK.


Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.

Snow Hoper
22 January 2019 17:34:09

 

That must be a locality based thing John as, if anything, the 06z GEFS suite here was colder than previous runs. At very worst as cold with decent agreement.

For the benefit of White Meadows this is just fact not interpretation.

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

Got to agree Doc, if anything the bump flattened out somewhat.


Going to war over religion is like killing each other to see who has the better imaginary friend.

Home : Mid Suffolk.

48m Asl

Iceman
22 January 2019 17:34:53
I thought the 12z GFS was a somewhat different and interesting run with several episodes of transient ridging to Greenland and several southerly tracking lows offering marginal snow opportunities for the south. Will the para replicate something similar and has there been a shift in the GEFS to something colder?
East Kilbride 480 ft
Rob K
22 January 2019 17:52:51
I'll admit my interest level is starting to notch up a little bit. If (and it's a big if) those 220-240hr GFS charts can make it to T120 then I will be officially quite interested.
Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

LA2B MeridFlowEuro09
22 January 2019 17:56:20

The Wind Reversal versus Zonality, 12z GFS and the UKMO do look like being in good agreement, but we need to see more cold air at today’s 192-216-240 range- UKMO 144 is good GFS 144 and ICON 144 is good as well.

It needs further analysis, another 7 days breathtaking hope casting.

Let’s see what they show us as we get to Tuesday and Wednesday next week.  12z GFS and the ICON- UKMO are supporting it’s take on it.  Colder from our North as gradually slowly it could turn colder.


Climate is warming up, Scotland and N Ireland and North England still often gets some Winter frost, ice and snow, November to March, but the SE and South UK including S Central England and Wales, together with the West and North through the year, they sometimes get more rain than London and S SE England, where some longer dry fine spells without much heavy rain is seen every year.

The North Atlantic Sea often gets some much Colder Wintry conditions from November to March Months, and Mild SW and South winds tend to be more frequent over the East and SE of North Atlantic Sea, as the Azores High tends to stay in charge. 

With this warmth and heat, the Central and South UK has become mostly free of snow and frost.

Gandalf The White
22 January 2019 17:58:49

 

No. The theoretical maximum is 23 * 16 = 368.

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

No, that's not correct Brian. There are four sets of data per day in the ensemble chart.

Four per day multiplied by 16 days multiplied by 23 separate model runs.

 

 


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Quantum
22 January 2019 18:02:24

The GEM offers an interesting possibility with the scandi high exerting alot more influence.

No easterly yet but if the models pick up on this idea we might see more easterly scenarios subsequently.

The current situation looks cold but atlantic dominated which is pretty good for the north west which will likely see heavy snow at times. The south and east rarely do well in a north westerly setup though.

If it wasn't for the phantom easterly last week I'd say the current output is really very good in the sceme of things.

 


25/26 (850hpa temp) 11 days snow/sleet falling

18/11 (-4) 19/11 (-6) 20/11 (-6) 01/01 (-7) 04/01 (-10) 10/01 (-7) 11/01 (-3) 30/01 (-1) 13/02 (-6) 15/02 (-4) 18/02 (-6)

24/25 10d

18/11 (-6) 19/11 (-6) 23/11 (-2) 22/12 (-5) 04/01 (-5) 05/01 (0)14/02 (0) 15/02 (0)12/03 (-6) 13/03 (-6)

23/24 8d

29/11 (-6) 30/11 (-6) 02/12 (-5) 03/12 (-5) 04/12 (-3) 16/01 (-3) 18/01 (-8)08/02 (-5)

22/23 7d

18/12 (-1)06/03 (-6) 08/03 (-8) 09/03 (-6) 10/03 (-8) 11/03 (-5) 14/03 (-6)

21/22 12d

kmoorman
22 January 2019 18:11:35

 

No, that's not correct Brian. There are four sets of data per day in the ensemble chart.

Four per day multiplied by 16 days multiplied by 23 separate model runs.

 

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

 

See below for Previous discussion, which is pertinent

 

 

Brian - sorry to come back to this. Do the TWO ensemble charts generate from the same base data as the Wetterzentrale ones? the only reason I ask is the snow row % they show are shown for every 6 hour increment of the output, so they give 4 values per 24 hours. the TWO ones on give 2 per 24 hours. How is there a difference?

This is not a criticism, just curious.

Originally Posted by: kmoorman 

 

1) Almost certainly. The only possibility is they use one of the adjusted data sets provided by NCEP, unlikely though because it would most likely be labelled differently.

2) The GEFS data sets are stepped at 6 hour intervals so there are 4 steps per full day. There are 23 runs - 20 GEFS, Control, Mean and GFS Operational. The TWO snow row is calculated by:

i) Check each run

ii) Check ALL steps for a given day (usually 4, but not always. eg. 12z day 1 only has 2 steps, 12 and 18) to see whether snow is forecast

iii) If one or more steps for a given day show snow then add 1 to the snow row value for that day

The key difference between the TWO and WZ ones (if they are as you describe) is this:

1) WZ is showing the chance of snow for a given time step

2) TWO is showing the chance of snow for a given day

A quick example:

Assume only 1 run shows snow for all 4 time steps on day 2.

TWO will display a snow row of 1 for day 2.

WZ will display a snow row of 1 (or the % equivalent) for day 2 00:00 GMT, 1 for day 2 06:00 GMT, 1 for day 2 12:00 GMT, 1 for day 2 18:00 GMT.

 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

 

 

Thank you.

Does your method round to the nearest integer then, as there will be times when the number don't easily divide by 4 for a single day.

So, if the figures for a day are 1 1 0 1 or 2 2 3 2 would TWO give us 1 and 2 respectively?

And to get a 23 on TWO we'd need at a minimum 22 23 23 23 for the 4 data points on that specific day.

Is that correct?

Originally Posted by: kmoorman 

 

 

The number is always whole so there is never a need to round up or down. 

I'll try and give a better example. Assume the GEFS only goes out to t+24 hours and consists of only 3 runs. Then it would be calculated like this: 

 

Runt+0t+6t+12t+18Snow row count
P1NoNoNoNo0
P2NoYesNoNo1
P3YesYesYesYes1
Snow row total     2

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 


Home: Durrington, Worthing, West Sussex. (16 ASL)

Work: Canary Wharf, London

Follow me on Twitter @kmoorman1968

Iceman
22 January 2019 18:11:40

I'll admit my interest level is starting to notch up a little bit. If (and it's a big if) those 220-240hr GFS charts can make it to T120 then I will be officially quite interested.

Originally Posted by: Rob K 

 

Agreed, quick look at t850s of the GEFS for East Kilbride and London show the 12z to be a little colder for 27-28 Jan.

How can some coldies  think that the current NWP is not good?


East Kilbride 480 ft
fairweather
22 January 2019 18:22:06

 

No, that's not correct Brian. There are four sets of data per day in the ensemble chart.

Four per day multiplied by 16 days multiplied by 23 separate model runs.

 

 

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

No. There are four sets of data per day but only one set for each ensemble, added up from each of the 23 perturbations. Each one that says it will snow scores 1 I believe. Therefore maximum is 23x16 = 368 surely? The maximum for a day would be x4 again but that wouldn't mean anything.


S.Essex, 42m ASL

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