The Weather Outlook

Remove ads from site

Phil24
02 January 2019 11:02:50

 

I had not read they needed to be maintained for 5 days?

It is also getting extremely repetitive and tedious re. the posting of charts in the first half of January to dismiss the prospect of the forecast and sometimes modelled cold from midmonth. 

On the subject of consistency I think the GFS has been highlighting a scenario for midmonth very clearly now. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_336_1.png 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

I think we all tend to get led up the garden path with the effects of SSW's, most are minor affairs and have little or no impact.  GFS is trending to an interesting period post mid month, the current SSW has nothing to do with it.  But its impact may well be included in the next week or so.  I like your post, they are always very informative and based on facts as current from a consistent source.

Dingle Rob
02 January 2019 11:14:27

 

I had not read they needed to be maintained for 5 days?

It is also getting extremely repetitive and tedious re. the posting of charts in the first half of January to dismiss the prospect of the forecast and sometimes modelled cold from midmonth. 

On the subject of consistency I think the GFS has been highlighting a scenario for midmonth very clearly now. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_336_1.png 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

 

By construction, the selected events coincide closely to sudden stratospheric warmings as defined by the World Meteorological Society (WMO). S According to the WMO definition, a stratospheric warming occurs when the latitudinal gradient in 10-hPa zonal-mean temperatures between 85° and 60°N is positive for more than 5 days.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/suppl/10.1175/BAMS-D-13-00173.1/suppl_file/10.1175_bams-d-13-00173.2.pdf 

Gandalf The White
02 January 2019 11:18:21

 

The good news for SSW fans is that last night's 12z ECM showed reversal at 10hPa/60N for 10 days - and it'd been showing that the previous day too.

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Yes, it looks like a fairly major event. Having read a few comments by experts in this area this morning I am increasingly confident of seeing some significant blocking and disruption after mid-month.

Just to put that into context, first I'm starting from having limited confidence anyway and second, we still need the blocking in the right place. I don't think anyone should assume we will get a dominant Scandi high; blocking towards Greenland is perhaps more likely. With a large dollop of luck we'll get both....


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



doctormog
02 January 2019 11:19:47

 

 

By construction, the selected events coincide closely to sudden stratospheric warmings as defined by the World Meteorological Society (WMO). S According to the WMO definition, a stratospheric warming occurs when the latitudinal gradient in 10-hPa zonal-mean temperatures between 85° and 60°N is positive for more than 5 days.

https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/suppl/10.1175/BAMS-D-13-00173.1/suppl_file/10.1175_bams-d-13-00173.2.pdf 

Originally Posted by: Dingle Rob 

The defintions in that article seem somewhat contradictory and this is actually highlighted towards the end

“Although studies use different definitions for MWs, there is a general agreement on the poleward temperature increase from 60 N. Some studies are critical about the timing of wind reversal that it must last for 5 days (e.g., Limpasuvan et al. 2004), but no strict time condition is followed by some other”

From what I have read in other sources, what we have by a generally accepted (although obviously not universally) definition is a major SSW. 


ballamar
02 January 2019 11:24:30
The SSW will impact our weather as will so many other factors! We could end up frigid, foggy or having BBQ’s!! Personally I am going for the frigid option although I was optimistic about some cold in December
Gandalf The White
02 January 2019 11:38:13

The SSW will impact our weather as will so many other factors! We could end up frigid, foggy or having BBQ’s!! Personally I am going for the frigid option although I was optimistic about some cold in December

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

I'm not aware that SSWs promote mid-level blocking; generally they disrupt the PV. That means you can rule out BBQ weather, unless you like cooking outside whilst the snow is fallling....


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Rob K
02 January 2019 11:42:00

 

On the subject of consistency I think the GFS has been highlighting a scenario for midmonth very clearly now. http://www.wetterzentrale.de/maps/GFSOPEU06_336_1.png 

Originally Posted by: doctormog 

Yes the favoured pattern seems to be a major lobe of the PV settling into the Baltic region, with high pressure to the west of that. How far west it ends up will decide whether we can tap into the cold or see it all confined to mainland Europe.


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

ballamar
02 January 2019 11:42:59

 

I'm not aware that SSWs promote mid-level blocking; generally they disrupt the PV. That means you can rule out BBQ weather, unless you like cooking outside whilst the snow is fallling....

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

 

depends on the extent of the block I suppose

Brian Gaze
02 January 2019 11:43:36

GFSP going for a decent cold snap again. 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

tallyho_83
02 January 2019 11:51:52

GFSP going for a decent cold snap again. 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Around mid month in line with met Office forecast - nice block building over Greenland too forcing lOW pressure systems to sink southwards. Hopefully we will see some consistency soon?


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

tallyho_83
02 January 2019 11:53:49

 

 

depends on the extent of the block I suppose

Originally Posted by: ballamar 

And the positioning of the block which is crucial. 


Home Location - Vixen Tor Close, Okehampton, Devon (221m ASL)

---------------------------------------

Sean Moon

Magical Moon

www.magical-moon.com

marco 79
02 January 2019 11:54:22
Indeed...Parallel wants to retrogress our UK high firmly in the right place (Eastern Greenland)...sending the Canadian energy SE....GEFS will be interesting ...
Home : Mid Leicestershire ...135m ASL
Maunder Minimum
02 January 2019 11:54:55

 

Around mid month in line with met Office forecast - nice block building over Greenland too forcing lOW pressure systems to sink southwards. Hopefully we will see some consistency soon?

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 

The GFSP rescues the 06Z output - but as you rightly point out, we need to see some consistency in the model output for this to materialise, not just between the different models, but between different runs on the same model. Until we see cross model consistency at 10 days plus from now, it is all strictly FI.

Given that there is no consistency between or within models, I guess the NWP must be struggling with the fallout from the SSW.


New world order coming.
doctormog
02 January 2019 12:10:57

The consistency in the GFS/P output for the timescale (mid January) has been remarkably high IMO. The 06z output should not come as a surprise.


Gandalf The White
02 January 2019 12:20:29

As Marcus would say, just for fun.... almost the entire country snow covered


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



ballamar
02 January 2019 12:22:01

As Marcus would say, just for fun.... almost the entire country snow covered

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White 

 

great to see the potential there, hopefully a sign of things to come

doctormog
02 January 2019 12:23:58
If anyone is interested. Here is a selection of the recent GFSP output for mid month. There have of course been blips and changes in the timing and details/extent of cold but the general scenario has been flagged up a number of time. This last run is not out of the blue.

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/archives/2019010200/gfs-0-360.png?0 

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/archives/2019010112/gfs-0-336.png?12 

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/archives/2019010106/gfs-0-372.png?6 

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/archives/2019010100/gfs-0-348.png?0 

http://modeles.meteociel.fr/modeles/gfsp/archives/2018123118/gfs-0-360.png?18 


Rob K
02 January 2019 12:28:25

GFSP goes into full-on reverse zonality. Looks like a locked in cold spell would follow from that chart!

 

GEFS are still all over the place. Run 4 is a beaut, as is run 2 and a few others.

 


Yateley, NE Hampshire, 73m asl

"But who wants to be foretold the weather? It is bad enough when it comes, without our having the misery of knowing about it beforehand." — Jerome K. Jerome

Brian Gaze
02 January 2019 12:51:47

I notice Exeter have pushed back the cold spell into late January and put more emphasis on the uncertainty. That's pretty much in line with what I suggested would happen this morning. Interestingly they seem to be plugging in wet and windy conditions for the middle of the month (possibly chilly at times with a snow risk in the north) which is the period we are largely focusing on with GFS/GEFS. 


Brian Gaze

Berkhamsted

TWO Buzz - get the latest news and views 

"I'm not socialist, I know that. I don't believe in sharing my money." - Gary Numan

White Meadows
02 January 2019 12:57:10

Wondering whether the nice eye candy from NYE was once again due to missing data? The trend is very much going the wrong way again now.

Originally Posted by: moomin75 

Not really, as others have stated. No more than the usual 0.2 variance shown all year round in model accuracy:

http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS/html/new_acz6.html

 

White Meadows
02 January 2019 13:05:26

I notice Exeter have pushed back the cold spell into late January and put more emphasis on the uncertainty. That's pretty much in line with what I suggested would happen this morning. Interestingly they seem to be plugging in wet and windy conditions for the middle of the month (possibly chilly at times with a snow risk in the north) which is the period we are largely focusing on with GFS/GEFS. 

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

Yes I noticed that too Brian. A shift to open & any possible scenarios on the table. The general tone is now stamped with an obvious disclaimer. 

Retron
02 January 2019 13:30:51

Not really, as others have stated. No more than the usual 0.2 variance shown all year round in model accuracy:

http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/gmb/STATS/html/new_acz6.html

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 

Thank you for proving my point. That chart shows the customary dip in accuracy from the Christmas lack of data quite nicely, but as you are no doubt aware you won't find any stats for a 6 day forecast one day after it was made!


Leysdown, north Kent
White Meadows
02 January 2019 13:40:44
Amazing how GFS was unaffected. So points proven on both sides gents.

The variance appears to be almost the same as the usual peaks & troughs through the rest of the year.

Gandalf The White
02 January 2019 13:40:48

 

Thank you for proving my point. That chart shows the customary dip in accuracy from the Christmas lack of data quite nicely, but as you are no doubt aware you won't find any stats for a 6 day forecast one day after it was made!

Originally Posted by: Retron 

Indeed. What that does show is the difficulties with the pattern at Xmas; obviously not restricted to our corner of the world.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Gandalf The White
02 January 2019 13:42:02

Amazing how GFS was unaffected. So points proven on both sides gents.
The variance appears to be almost the same as the usual peaks & troughs through the rest of the year.

Originally Posted by: White Meadows 

Aside from the fact that the variability isn't 20% within each model. ECM varies by less than 10% and UKMO by not much more.


Location: South Cambridgeshire

130 metres ASL

52.0N 0.1E



Remove ads from site