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Gray-Wolf Offline
#721 Posted : 16 March 2011 14:49:18(UTC)
Gray-Wolf

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Location: Hebden Bridge

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2011074/crefl2_143.A2011074233500-2011074234000.250m.jpg

The above is the bering sea are /straits and inside the basin. There appears to have been a lot of fragmentation going on here and the 'slushy' look to areas of the ice suggests that some of the ice has been 'dunked'. Do we know if the Tsunami travelled up the coast here (and into the straits)? as this would give reason for both the scale/size of ice fragments and the darker/slushy looking ice.

Koyaanisqatsi

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

Gandalf The White Offline
#722 Posted : 16 March 2011 17:32:35(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2011074/crefl2_143.A2011074233500-2011074234000.250m.jpg

The above is the bering sea are /straits and inside the basin. There appears to have been a lot of fragmentation going on here and the 'slushy' look to areas of the ice suggests that some of the ice has been 'dunked'. Do we know if the Tsunami travelled up the coast here (and into the straits)? as this would give reason for both the scale/size of ice fragments and the darker/slushy looking ice.

Yes it did but not significantly:

 

Source: http://pleasewait.repost...a-Tsunami-Japan-2011.jpg

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

AIMSIR Offline
#723 Posted : 17 March 2011 01:18:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2011074/crefl2_143.A2011074233500-2011074234000.250m.jpg

The above is the bering sea are /straits and inside the basin. There appears to have been a lot of fragmentation going on here and the 'slushy' look to areas of the ice suggests that some of the ice has been 'dunked'. Do we know if the Tsunami travelled up the coast here (and into the straits)? as this would give reason for both the scale/size of ice fragments and the darker/slushy looking ice.

It is most likely the conditions you describe are within the range of normal for this time of year.

Your theory is interesting though?.

Edited by user 17 March 2011 01:34:07(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Gray-Wolf Offline
#724 Posted : 17 March 2011 08:26:34(UTC)
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if you look at the Alaskan side you can see the coastal area has a long band of 'slushy' looking ice? This would be the area catching any of the 'wave' square on and any swash running back over the ice would melt out the top snow cover as it went?

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2011076/crefl2_143.A2011076001500-2011076002000.250m.jpg

Edited by user 17 March 2011 09:21:37(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Koyaanisqatsi

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AIMSIR Offline
#725 Posted : 17 March 2011 14:33:08(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

if you look at the Alaskan side you can see the coastal area has a long band of 'slushy' looking ice? This would be the area catching any of the 'wave' square on and any swash running back over the ice would melt out the top snow cover as it went?

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/realtime/single.php?2011076/crefl2_143.A2011076001500-2011076002000.250m.jpg

It does look a bit broken.

Although I think Gandalf,s chart could discount any major link.

Do you have a recent history on that area?.

Edited by user 17 March 2011 14:38:55(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Gray-Wolf Offline
#726 Posted : 18 March 2011 08:23:14(UTC)
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If you look at GTW's link you'll see that , by the time is swashes over that coast, it did have height above tide levels and it will have taken the form of 4 or 5 big waves. The waves will have broken beyond the ice cover (run up the beach) but washed back on top of the ice (striping the snow cover and leaving just ice).

Today is the start of the spring full moon and so a similar height change will work over the whole basin so we should look at the ice integrity on Monday to see if (any) changes have occurred to the levels of fragmentation?

Koyaanisqatsi

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

Gandalf The White Offline
#727 Posted : 18 March 2011 14:00:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

If you look at GTW's link you'll see that , by the time is swashes over that coast, it did have height above tide levels and it will have taken the form of 4 or 5 big waves. The waves will have broken beyond the ice cover (run up the beach) but washed back on top of the ice (striping the snow cover and leaving just ice).

Today is the start of the spring full moon and so a similar height change will work over the whole basin so we should look at the ice integrity on Monday to see if (any) changes have occurred to the levels of fragmentation?

I couldn't decide if a residual tsunami of perhaps 10-20cm was anything unusual but you may be correct.

Anyway, tentatively it looks as if we may have peaked in terms of ice extent.  We achieved 13,887k on 8th March, since when the figure has fallen back to its latest 13,818k.   Based on recent years the value could still increase for another week or so but is likely to remain 2nd lowest in the recent record.

 

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

Gray-Wolf Offline
#728 Posted : 19 March 2011 19:58:41(UTC)
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Hi Guys!

I don't think (?) it would take more than GTW's 10-20cm swell to wash off the snow cover on a back swash? With the 'snow' cover gone we'll find the albedo lowered and melt hastened?

Koyaanisqatsi

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Gray-Wolf Offline
#729 Posted : 20 March 2011 19:33:48(UTC)
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http://www.woksat.info/etctc20/tc20-1131-f-grn-n.html

So , any new 'leads' from the spring 'supermoon'?

Koyaanisqatsi

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

four Online
#730 Posted : 24 March 2011 00:03:45(UTC)
four

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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

Hi Guys!

I don't think (?) it would take more than GTW's 10-20cm swell to wash off the snow cover on a back swash? With the 'snow' cover gone we'll find the albedo lowered and melt hastened?


Hardly, the sun is barely above the horizon yet.
The wave energy doesn't appear to have gone north to any extent.
Away from the coast it would be a barely noticeable swell anyway
I just don't think it will have made any difference.

Gray-Wolf Offline
#731 Posted : 25 March 2011 09:14:31(UTC)
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http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Still high enough to cause us ice max. Four! So here we  go for the melt season.

Lower than 07' by ice min I'd guess.

Koyaanisqatsi

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Gandalf The White Offline
#732 Posted : 25 March 2011 10:44:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

Still high enough to cause us ice max. Four! So here we  go for the melt season.

Lower than 07' by ice min I'd guess.

That's puzzling as those values are different to the ones on the IJIS site.

According to that site the maximum was a day earlier and was the 2nd lowest, just ahead of 2006.

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

FredBear Offline
#733 Posted : 25 March 2011 14:05:21(UTC)
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Interesting swirl around central arctic (viewed on Cryosphere Today 03/23/2011), looks like ice may already be weaker in this area? Arctic sea ice

Edited by user 25 March 2011 14:06:38(UTC)  | Reason: spelling!

AIMSIR Offline
#734 Posted : 25 March 2011 23:07:52(UTC)
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Hi FredBear.(and welcome)

I was wondering about that swirl myself lately.
It doesn't show up on the comparison screen from Cryosphere.

Worth following for a while.

Things can change up there from day to day.

Woksat or Rapidfire Sat will bring you closer on current conditions.

You will need to know your geography or orienteering for these interesting sites.

 

Edited by user 26 March 2011 00:15:13(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

polarwind Offline
#735 Posted : 28 March 2011 10:16:21(UTC)
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The freshwater content of the upper Arctic Ocean has increased by about 20 percent since the 1990s, according to a new large-scale assessment. This corresponds to a rise of approximately 8,400 cubic kilometres and has the same magnitude as the volume of freshwater annually exported on average from this marine region in liquid or frozen form.

from -

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325111901.htm

We all know fresh water freezes more easily than salt water and we also know that salt water ice melts earlier or at lower temperatures than freshwater ice, so, is this extra freshwater another feedback mechanism conducive to ice sustainability?

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Dave
Derby
Gandalf The White Offline
#736 Posted : 28 March 2011 10:28:31(UTC)
Gandalf The White

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Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post

The freshwater content of the upper Arctic Ocean has increased by about 20 percent since the 1990s, according to a new large-scale assessment. This corresponds to a rise of approximately 8,400 cubic kilometres and has the same magnitude as the volume of freshwater annually exported on average from this marine region in liquid or frozen form.

from -

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325111901.htm

We all know fresh water freezes more easily than salt water and we also know that salt water ice melts earlier or at lower temperatures than freshwater ice, so, is this extra freshwater another feedback mechanism conducive to ice sustainability?

That's an interesting article.  I think the conclusions are rather different from the one you are offering?

Firstly, the increasing levels of freshwater have been building up at the same time that ice has been reducing. I would have thought that you might conclude logically that the rate of ice loss would have been even worse without this fresh water. To that extent it is indeed a feedback mechanism but it doesn't appear to be stopping the melting, merely - perhaps - slowing it a litte?

Of more concern perhaps is the effect of freshwater outflows on the sinks that are a critical and delicate part of the great ocean conveyor system.  It was suggested some years ago that increased river flow into the Arctic Basin would lower the salinity and might impact in this way.  Couple that with the rapid ice loss from the Greenland ice sheet.

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

polarwind Offline
#737 Posted : 28 March 2011 10:41:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post

The freshwater content of the upper Arctic Ocean has increased by about 20 percent since the 1990s, according to a new large-scale assessment. This corresponds to a rise of approximately 8,400 cubic kilometres and has the same magnitude as the volume of freshwater annually exported on average from this marine region in liquid or frozen form.

from -

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325111901.htm

We all know fresh water freezes more easily than salt water and we also know that salt water ice melts earlier or at lower temperatures than freshwater ice, so, is this extra freshwater another feedback mechanism conducive to ice sustainability?

That's an interesting article.  I think the conclusions are rather different from the one you are offering?

Firstly, the increasing levels of freshwater have been building up at the same time that ice has been reducing. I would have thought that you might conclude logically that the rate of ice loss would have been even worse without this fresh water. To that extent it is indeed a feedback mechanism but it doesn't appear to be stopping the melting, merely - perhaps - slowing it a litte?

Of more concern perhaps is the effect of freshwater outflows on the sinks that are a critical and delicate part of the great ocean conveyor system.  It was suggested some years ago that increased river flow into the Arctic Basin would lower the salinity and might impact in this way.  Couple that with the rapid ice loss from the Greenland ice sheet.

Yes, I agree with your comments. I don't know what the position atm, but a while back, the "sinks" were fewer in number than previously - more than half in fact. Worrying. The feedbacks from that scenario would possibly be calamitous.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Dave
Derby
Gandalf The White Offline
#738 Posted : 28 March 2011 11:01:08(UTC)
Gandalf The White

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Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post

The freshwater content of the upper Arctic Ocean has increased by about 20 percent since the 1990s, according to a new large-scale assessment. This corresponds to a rise of approximately 8,400 cubic kilometres and has the same magnitude as the volume of freshwater annually exported on average from this marine region in liquid or frozen form.

from -

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110325111901.htm

We all know fresh water freezes more easily than salt water and we also know that salt water ice melts earlier or at lower temperatures than freshwater ice, so, is this extra freshwater another feedback mechanism conducive to ice sustainability?

That's an interesting article.  I think the conclusions are rather different from the one you are offering?

Firstly, the increasing levels of freshwater have been building up at the same time that ice has been reducing. I would have thought that you might conclude logically that the rate of ice loss would have been even worse without this fresh water. To that extent it is indeed a feedback mechanism but it doesn't appear to be stopping the melting, merely - perhaps - slowing it a litte?

Of more concern perhaps is the effect of freshwater outflows on the sinks that are a critical and delicate part of the great ocean conveyor system.  It was suggested some years ago that increased river flow into the Arctic Basin would lower the salinity and might impact in this way.  Couple that with the rapid ice loss from the Greenland ice sheet.

Yes, I agree with your comments. I don't know what the position atm, but a while back, the "sinks" were fewer in number than previously - more than half in fact. Worrying. The feedbacks from that scenario would possibly be calamitous.

Yes, removing a key component of the mechanism for moving heat and moisture away from the Equatorial regions would have potentially profound effects.  As I understand it, around the North Atlantic (NE US, NW Europe) we would see a offset of the warming from AGW whilst the heat would be held nearer the Equator.  This has been modelled and I recall that rainfall reduces markedly in some parts of the world.

Who knows?  But it is one example of why I keep saying that we are unwise to be tampering with such a complex system (the global climate) when nobody knows for certain how that system will respond to changing inputs.  Tipping points and non-linear responses are, I understand, typical of complex systems.  "I told you so" will not be much help if we blunder into one.

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

Gray-Wolf Offline
#739 Posted : 28 March 2011 18:19:50(UTC)
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I'm sure there was recent research showing that the sinks (of NE Greenland) had returned back to their 'normal' patterns?

As for the 'freshening of the Basin' there's a lot of melt water (from 'old ice') and lots more outflow from the Northern European/Russian land masses. As to the 'shakedown' from this surface freshening? as long as it doesn't involve 'dark' algal blooms we are probably just playing 'swings and roundabouts' with earlier melting/freezing timings?

Koyaanisqatsi

VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS

Gandalf The White Offline
#740 Posted : 28 March 2011 22:59:41(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post

I'm sure there was recent research showing that the sinks (of NE Greenland) had returned back to their 'normal' patterns?

As for the 'freshening of the Basin' there's a lot of melt water (from 'old ice') and lots more outflow from the Northern European/Russian land masses. As to the 'shakedown' from this surface freshening? as long as it doesn't involve 'dark' algal blooms we are probably just playing 'swings and roundabouts' with earlier melting/freezing timings?

I did give this some thought earlier.  Unless I am missing something surely the melt water from old sea ice will be saline?

Location: Watford, Hertfordshire

65m ASL
51.68N, 0.38W

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