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sunnyhighpressure User is suspended until 25/11/2022 11:29:49(UTC)
#301 Posted : 24 August 2011 16:05:06(UTC)
sunnyhighpressure

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Joined: 03/04/2010(UTC)
Posts: 690
Location: Leeds, West Yorks

Originally Posted by: speckledjim Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: sunnyhighpressure Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Gavin P Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: John S2 Go to Quoted Post
Nino 3.4 region index now fallen to -0.56c
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/indices.shtml

Yes it does seem to be dropping like a stone at the moment, I must admit.

what does all this mean, is it a good or bad thing? Will it influence our weather later in the year?

According to the website above their analysis is that Despite this cooling, current indicators remain well short of the strong La Niña conditions evident at the equivalent time last year

so it thinks we may get a strong la nina? or are we far from getting a strogn one?

Snow days, winter of 2011/12

December 4th, snow showers in evening, a little sugar coating on some surface
December 5th, snow/hail/sleet showers on and off, particularly early in the day
December 6th, sleet/mix of snow and rain in the evening


Temperatures for December:

1st December 5.5c 2nd December 5.5c 3rd December 9c 4th December 4c
5th December 5c 6th December 4.7c 7th December 6c 8th December 11c
9th December 5c
speckledjim Offline
#302 Posted : 24 August 2011 17:42:23(UTC)
speckledjim

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Joined: 02/07/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,131
Location: Thorner, West Yorkshire 112m asl

Originally Posted by: sunnyhighpressure Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: speckledjim Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: sunnyhighpressure Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Gavin P Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: John S2 Go to Quoted Post
Nino 3.4 region index now fallen to -0.56c
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/indices.shtml

Yes it does seem to be dropping like a stone at the moment, I must admit.

what does all this mean, is it a good or bad thing? Will it influence our weather later in the year?

According to the website above their analysis is that Despite this cooling, current indicators remain well short of the strong La Niña conditions evident at the equivalent time last year

so it thinks we may get a strong la nina? or are we far from getting a strogn one?

I read it as saying we are far from getting a strong one (currently)

not young enough to know everything
jtwigge Offline
#303 Posted : 25 August 2011 18:18:21(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

How low can she go ?

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

One of the forecast runs has La Nina going off the scale below -3 ! 

How far exactly, we can't tell, it was off the scale :-)

But it certainly looks like one to watch as the MEAN of the members now gets close to -2.

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
Devonian Offline
#304 Posted : 25 August 2011 18:41:40(UTC)
Devonian

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Location: SE Devon

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

How low can she go ?

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

One of the forecast runs has La Nina going off the scale below -3 ! 

How far exactly, we can't tell, it was off the scale :-)

But it certainly looks like one to watch as the MEAN of the members now gets close to -2.

There were some predictions tht most recent  LN would be record breaking as well - it didn't happen. The outliers are unlikely to be right.

jtwigge Offline
#305 Posted : 28 August 2011 09:45:35(UTC)
jtwigge

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Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

How low can she go ?

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

One of the forecast runs has La Nina going off the scale below -3 ! 

How far exactly, we can't tell, it was off the scale :-)

But it certainly looks like one to watch as the MEAN of the members now gets close to -2.

There were some predictions tht most recent  LN would be record breaking as well - it didn't happen. The outliers are unlikely to be right.

True enough, unless they are.  Three of them now falling off the bottom of the chart.  PErhaps it is a trend...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
John S2 Offline
#306 Posted : 29 August 2011 14:51:18(UTC)
John S2

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Posts: 1,351
Location: West Yorks/East Lancs

Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

There were some predictions tht most recent  LN would be record breaking as well - it didn't happen. The outliers are unlikely to be right.

True, but there were prolonged periods with high SOI numbers.

TomC Online
#307 Posted : 29 August 2011 19:47:49(UTC)
TomC

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Posts: 7,317
Location: Glossop

jtwigge Offline
#308 Posted : 05 September 2011 21:03:41(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

It look slike a trend to me.  Now seven members going below minus three and the mean getting to minus 2.25.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

and every single member going below minus one as well

Edited by user 05 September 2011 21:04:24(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
TomC Online
#309 Posted : 06 September 2011 11:11:41(UTC)
TomC

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 27/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,317
Location: Glossop

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

It look slike a trend to me.  Now seven members going below minus three and the mean getting to minus 2.25.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

and every single member going below minus one as well

This is what NOAA say who produce this model

'ENSO-neutral is expected to continue into the Northern Hemisphere fall 2011, with ENSO-neutral or La Niña equally likely thereafter'

which comes from looking at all tne model outputs

 

jtwigge Offline
#310 Posted : 07 September 2011 12:25:58(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

Originally Posted by: TomC Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

It look slike a trend to me.  Now seven members going below minus three and the mean getting to minus 2.25.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

and every single member going below minus one as well

This is what NOAA say who produce this model

'ENSO-neutral is expected to continue into the Northern Hemisphere fall 2011, with ENSO-neutral or La Niña equally likely thereafter'

which comes from looking at all tne model outputs

 

 


 

Well, it is now -0.7 so that is looking wrong already and it is still summer never mind fall:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

Looking more like a trend every week.

 

Edit: Or did i just show my lack of awareness re the official or otherwise of the seasons?  I can never remember the dates official or otherwise.

Edited by user 07 September 2011 12:27:49(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
TomC Online
#311 Posted : 07 September 2011 14:36:18(UTC)
TomC

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 27/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 7,317
Location: Glossop

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: TomC Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

It look slike a trend to me.  Now seven members going below minus three and the mean getting to minus 2.25.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

and every single member going below minus one as well

This is what NOAA say who produce this model

'ENSO-neutral is expected to continue into the Northern Hemisphere fall 2011, with ENSO-neutral or La Niña equally likely thereafter'

which comes from looking at all tne model outputs

 

 

 

Well, it is now -0.7 so that is looking wrong already and it is still summer never mind fall:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

Looking more like a trend every week.

 

Edit: Or did i just show my lack of awareness re the official or otherwise of the seasons?  I can never remember the dates official or otherwise.

The report I quoted was issued by NOAA on 6 September, the 6 th data of meteorological autumn. I don't pretend to know about the ENSO forecasts myself I just thought the CFS-2 ensembles needed to put into the context of other model forecasts and NOAAs analysis (CFS is their model after all)

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/enso_evolution-status-fcsts-web.pdf

 

jtwigge Offline
#312 Posted : 09 September 2011 23:32:49(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

Originally Posted by: TomC Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: TomC Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

It look slike a trend to me.  Now seven members going below minus three and the mean getting to minus 2.25.

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

and every single member going below minus one as well

This is what NOAA say who produce this model

'ENSO-neutral is expected to continue into the Northern Hemisphere fall 2011, with ENSO-neutral or La Niña equally likely thereafter'

which comes from looking at all tne model outputs

 

 

 

Well, it is now -0.7 so that is looking wrong already and it is still summer never mind fall:

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

Looking more like a trend every week.

 

Edit: Or did i just show my lack of awareness re the official or otherwise of the seasons?  I can never remember the dates official or otherwise.

The report I quoted was issued by NOAA on 6 September, the 6 th data of meteorological autumn. I don't pretend to know about the ENSO forecasts myself I just thought the CFS-2 ensembles needed to put into the context of other model forecasts and NOAAs analysis (CFS is their model after all)

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/enso_evolution-status-fcsts-web.pdf

 

NOAA: "La Nina is back", 8th September

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2011/20110908_lanina.html

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
jtwigge Offline
#313 Posted : 20 September 2011 20:26:19(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

The average on this Enso model now touches minus 2.5. 

It would be fascinating to see what the model is picking up on to predict such a strong La Nina in the coming months.

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
polarwind Offline
#314 Posted : 23 September 2011 09:06:47(UTC)
polarwind

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Location: Derby

I bet phase synchronization ( or lack of it) could be applied to a alot of climate science - as in what might happen cause changes to ocean mixing over long periods of time. (hundreds of years)

See -  http://www.sciencedaily....2011/09/110922102238.htm

ScienceDaily (Sep. 21, 2011) — The interaction between El Niño events and the seasonal cycle of sea surface temperature in the eastern equatorial Pacific can be described through a nonlinear phase synchronization mechanism, according to a study by researchers in Hawaii. The findings are expected to improve prediction of El Niño events.

Phase synchronization is a phenomenon in which separate oscillatory systems develop joint coherent behavior by some nonlinear mechanism. First described in 1673 by Dutch scientist Christiaan Huygens, this phenomenon occurs for instance when an applauding audience suddenly starts to clap in unison or when human breathing patterns lock to multiples of the heart beat.

Two climate modes dominate the temperature variability in the eastern equatorial Pacific. Generated through air-sea interactions, the El Niño-Southern Oscillation is the tropical Pacific climate mode that disrupts weather patterns world wide about every 2 to 7 years. The seasonal cycle of temperatures off Ecuador and the Galapagos Islands emerges through coupled air-sea interactions in response to off-equatorial solar radiation and can vary substantially from year- to-year in amplitude and phase with respect to the calendar, depending on the state of the El Niño system.

The interaction between El Niño events and the seasonal cycle of sea surface temperatures in the eastern equatorial Pacific can be described through such a nonlinear phase synchronization mechanism, according to a study published in the September issue of Physical Review Letters by University of Hawai`i Manoa (UHM) PhD student Karl Stein and by Axel Timmermann and Niklas Schneider, professors at the International Pacific Research Center and the Department of Oceanography, UHM.

The team of climate scientists analyzed decades of temperature observations to detect evidence for phase synchronization among these two dominant tropical climate modes. Their extensive and complex mathematical computations showed that El Niño events and the annual temperature cycle in the eastern equatorial Pacific synchronize their common dynamics in what scientists call a "2:1 Arnold Tongue," after the famous Russian mathematician Vladimir Arnold (1937-2010). This partial synchronization indicates that at certain times El Niño and the annual cycle run according to the same beat, while at other times the phases of the two climate modes "slip past" each other.

and..............

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Dave
Derby
polarwind Offline
#315 Posted : 07 October 2011 09:56:40(UTC)
polarwind

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Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

The average on this Enso model now touches minus 2.5. 

It would be fascinating to see what the model is picking up on to predict such a strong La Nina in the coming months.

NOAA on La Nina.

"Currently, La Niña is not as strong as it was in September 2010. Roughly one- half of the models predict La Niña to strengthen during the Northern Hemisphere fall and winter (Fig. 6). Of these models, majority predict a weak La Niña (3-month average in the Nino-3.4 region less than -0.9°C). In addition, a weaker second La Niña winter has occurred in three of the five multi-year La Niñas in the historical SST record since 1950. However, the NCEP Climate Forecast System (CFS.v1) predicts a moderate-strength La Niña this winter (between –1.0°C to –1.4°C) and CFS.v2 predicts a strong La Niña than –1.5°C), which rivals last year’s peak strength. For CFS forecasts made at this time of year, the average error for December-February is roughly ±0.5°C, so there is uncertainty as to whether this amplitude will be achieved. Thus, at this time, a weak or moderate strength La Niña is most likely during Northern Hemisphere winter."

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
Dave
Derby
jtwigge Offline
#316 Posted : 12 October 2011 13:54:57(UTC)
jtwigge

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 379

Going down - now to (minus) -0.78

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

and still possibly going a lot lower...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif 

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
jtwigge Offline
#317 Posted : 13 October 2011 17:36:32(UTC)
jtwigge

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Posts: 379

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Going down - now to (minus) -0.78

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

and still possibly going a lot lower...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif 



perhaps this might make it chilly - the forecast up(down)dated:

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa...images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

Ilkeston, Derbyshire
John S2 Offline
#318 Posted : 13 October 2011 17:50:47(UTC)
John S2

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Joined: 06/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 1,351
Location: West Yorks/East Lancs

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Going down - now to (minus) -0.78

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

and still possibly going a lot lower...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif 

perhaps this might make it chilly - the forecast up(down)dated: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa...images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

Does anyone know why such a strong Nina is being forecast? It would be particularly unusual for a second year Nina. What signal or driver is the basis for this?

Gavin P Offline
#319 Posted : 13 October 2011 18:14:59(UTC)
Gavin Partridge

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United Kingdom

Originally Posted by: John S2 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Going down - now to (minus) -0.78

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

and still possibly going a lot lower...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif 

perhaps this might make it chilly - the forecast up(down)dated: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa...images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

Does anyone know why such a strong Nina is being forecast? It would be particularly unusual for a second year Nina. What signal or driver is the basis for this?

Personally I don't believe a word of it. It would be very unusual for a La Nina to keep go on stregnthning after Christmas and to reach its peak in March.

I think CFS has lost the plot, but we'll see.

Rural West Northants 120m asl

Short, medium and long range weather forecast videos @ http://gavsweathervids.com/
yorkshirelad89 Offline
#320 Posted : 13 October 2011 19:24:26(UTC)
yorkshirelad89

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/2010(UTC)
Posts: 936

Originally Posted by: Gavin P Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: John S2 Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: jtwigge Go to Quoted Post

Going down - now to (minus) -0.78

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/enso/monitoring/nino3_4.png

and still possibly going a lot lower...

http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/lanina/images3/nino34SSTMon.gif 

perhaps this might make it chilly - the forecast up(down)dated: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa...images3/nino34SSTMon.gif

Does anyone know why such a strong Nina is being forecast? It would be particularly unusual for a second year Nina. What signal or driver is the basis for this?

Personally I don't believe a word of it. It would be very unusual for a La Nina to keep go on stregnthning after Christmas and to reach its peak in March.

I think CFS has lost the plot, but we'll see.

Indeed the only example of a La Nina that has continued strengthening after Christmas is 1893 and to a smaller extent 1950, I think they are overplaying it at this point, especially seeing as it's a double dip La Nina.

Jonny

Kingston Upon Hull
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