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Offline AIMSIR  
#1 Posted : 17 July 2019 18:52:57(UTC)
AIMSIR

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Why do we try to preserve certain bogs and barren landscapes in Ireland such as the bogs of Allen or the Burren.

These conditions are manmade features but presented as wonders of natural beauty.

Should we not reverse the trend and plant trees on such and return them to what they were naturally, instead of trying to preserve ancient mankind's destruction of these areas?

 

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Offline ozone_aurora  
#2 Posted : 17 July 2019 18:57:57(UTC)
ozone_aurora

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Location: Lowestoft

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR Go to Quoted Post

Why do we try to preserve certain bogs and barren landscapes in Ireland such as the bogs of Allen or the Burren.

These conditions are manmade features but presented as wonders of natural beauty.

Should we not reverse the trend and plant trees on such and return them to what they were naturally, instead of trying to preserve ancient mankind's destruction of these areas?

 

 

Sounds like a good idea.

Offline DEW  
#3 Posted : 17 July 2019 20:50:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AIMSIR Go to Quoted Post

Why do we try to preserve certain bogs and barren landscapes in Ireland such as the bogs of Allen or the Burren.

These conditions are manmade features but presented as wonders of natural beauty.

Should we not reverse the trend and plant trees on such and return them to what they were naturally, instead of trying to preserve ancient mankind's destruction of these areas?

 

For anyone with even a passing interest in botany, the Burren is a miraculously beautiful place with an incredible and plentiful array of rare flowers. I've been there and I can only assume that if you did, you went with eyes tight shut or you'd have realised this. Additionally the impossibility of growing trees on a few cm of soil exposed to Atlantic gales might have occurred to you - Wiki suggests that the soil cover which supported the original forest was largely eroded by climate change to wetter conditions ca 3000BC.

Someone else can defend the Bog of Allen, but I think you're having a troll.

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Offline Bertwhistle  
#4 Posted : 17 July 2019 21:05:25(UTC)
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So a good move here would be to validate (or otherwise) Wiki's claim. Check out some published papers & sources. I'm not convinced there's trolling here- I thought Tony's question was fair and required an objective answer, especially as it was the first post. 

I'm open minded both ways- but would like some robust evidence relating to the anthropogenic origins of the bog.

On a different note, ancient bogs (like Emer Bog, Hampshire) do offer more than just a wildlife reserve- palaeoclimate reconstruction eg through coleoptera remains an example. Bog wildlife may not be so macro as that in the woodlands, but it is no less important.

Bertie, Itchen Valley.

Remember Finlake!

Online Roger Parsons  
#5 Posted : 18 July 2019 04:52:19(UTC)
Roger Parsons

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Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle Go to Quoted Post

So a good move here would be to validate (or otherwise) Wiki's claim. Check out some published papers & sources. I'm not convinced there's trolling here- I thought Tony's question was fair and required an objective answer, especially as it was the first post. 

I'm open minded both ways- but would like some robust evidence relating to the anthropogenic origins of the bog.

On a different note, ancient bogs (like Emer Bog, Hampshire) do offer more than just a wildlife reserve- palaeoclimate reconstruction eg through coleoptera remains an example. Bog wildlife may not be so macro as that in the woodlands, but it is no less important.

Thanks, Bert. I agree with that final point and am reminded of the terrific book you recommended, "After London" by Richard Jefferies. I am reflecting on the fact that in such habitats human activity has [unintentionally] achieved as a by-product something wonderful, of value and worth preserving for many reasons. A small selection below of some of the available views. I hope you and others find them useful. Roger

The Wildlife Trusts on Heathland and moorland

https://www.wildlifetrusts.org/habitats/heathland-and-moorland

Buglife on Lowland heathland

https://www.buglife.org.uk/advice-and-publications/advice-on-managing-bap-habitats/lowland-heathland

The Burren's own website - Heritage page

http://burrenprogramme.com/the-burren/heritage/

Edited by user 18 July 2019 05:02:07(UTC)  | Reason: fixed link

RogerP

West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire

No county (Lincolnshire) has better churches and worse houses. The poorer sort of people wash their clothes with hog's dung, and burn dried cow's dung for want of better fuel; whence comes the Lincolnshire proverb: "Where the hogs shite soap and the cows shite fire".

Curiosities of Great Britain (c.1780)

Offline DEW  
#6 Posted : 18 July 2019 06:06:49(UTC)
DEW

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Originally Posted by: Bertwhistle Go to Quoted Post

So a good move here would be to validate (or otherwise) Wiki's claim. Check out some published papers & sources. I'm not convinced there's trolling here- I thought Tony's question was fair and required an objective answer, especially as it was the first post. 

An interesting bit of palaeoclimate research, but really a side issue here. Re-afforestation of the Burren depends on how the area is now, not on what it may have been like 3000 or 5000 years ago.

Apologies to Tony if he's making a serious point, but the OP comes across to me as a throwaway remark without much thought behind it

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Online Roger Parsons  
#7 Posted : 22 July 2019 18:20:12(UTC)
Roger Parsons

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Originally Posted by: DEW Go to Quoted Post

An interesting bit of palaeoclimate research, but really a side issue here. Re-afforestation of the Burren depends on how the area is now, not on what it may have been like 3000 or 5000 years ago.

Apologies to Tony if he's making a serious point, but the OP comes across to me as a throwaway remark without much thought behind it

Biology also has its on-going debates similar to the Met issues aired in the forum, DEW. This BBC piece, however, sets out the view of the ONS and also the CEH. It also has an economic angle - unsurprisingly. It does sit well with the discussion above. I'll leave you to zap it in your wisdom if you think some folks might "tak it wrong". I have my views but prefer not to debate this here.

'Restore UK bogs' to tackle climate change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49074872

Roger

RogerP

West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire

No county (Lincolnshire) has better churches and worse houses. The poorer sort of people wash their clothes with hog's dung, and burn dried cow's dung for want of better fuel; whence comes the Lincolnshire proverb: "Where the hogs shite soap and the cows shite fire".

Curiosities of Great Britain (c.1780)

Offline DEW  
#8 Posted : 23 July 2019 06:08:10(UTC)
DEW

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Location: Chichester 12m. asl

Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons Go to Quoted Post

 

Biology also has its on-going debates similar to the Met issues aired in the forum, DEW. This BBC piece, however, sets out the view of the ONS and also the CEH. It also has an economic angle - unsurprisingly. It does sit well with the discussion above. I'll leave you to zap it in your wisdom if you think some folks might "tak it wrong". I have my views but prefer not to debate this here.

'Restore UK bogs' to tackle climate change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49074872

Roger

No problem. I asked if someone wanted to defend bogs and this article does it, calmly,as befits the Science Forum. 

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Offline four  
#9 Posted : 23 July 2019 09:24:18(UTC)
four

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Posts: 19,203
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There's no need for the climate change angle (but it is BBC).

I find it odd to hear moorlands described as miles and miles of bu**er all by people who basically don't get out of the car and look at the astonishing unique mosaic of peat, bog and heather.

There seems to be some opinion it ought to be largely covered in trees, it is odd this was vehemently fought against by conservation groups when forest was being planted around the periphery, because at that time it was appreciated as a different and valuable landscape host to many birds animals and plants not found elsewhere.

On a similar note there is a move to ban or restrict controlled burning mainly because it is supposed to be a grouse shooting thing I suspect.

Without periodic burning NYMoors for example heather becomes overgrown losing vigour, then gorse and other scrubby trees take over wide areas - the result is drying out of peat and sooner or later catastrophic hot summer fires rather than cool burns done in winter.

Most of the peat will bur out down to subsoil there will then be massive erosion and gully forming.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/...-grouse-management-ends/

Quote:

“The declines in moorland birds may be attributed to changes in land-use, including afforestation and agricultural intensification or abandonment, as well as a decline in the extent of grouse moor management. The impact of the latter is clearly illustrated in both case studies, in which significant drops in ground-nesting moorland birds happened in tandem with evident declines in levels of keepering.

This recent survey was part funded by the RSPB - not shooting establishment

Online Chunky Pea  
#10 Posted : 23 July 2019 09:56:09(UTC)
Chunky Pea

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Originally Posted by: DEW Go to Quoted Post

 

For anyone with even a passing interest in botany, the Burren is a miraculously beautiful place with an incredible and plentiful array of rare flowers. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but the Burren never struck me as being 'beautiful'. 

"There are nights when the wolves fall silent and only the moon howls"

--George Carlin.

Online Devonian  
#11 Posted : 23 July 2019 10:07:03(UTC)
Devonian

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Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
There's no need for the climate change angle (but it is BBC).
I find it odd to hear moorlands described as miles and miles of bu**er all by people who basically don't get out of the car and look at the astonishing unique mosaic of peat, bog and heather.
There seems to be some opinion it ought to be largely covered in trees, it is odd this was vehemently fought against by conservation groups when forest was being planted around the periphery, because at that time it was appreciated as a different and valuable landscape host to many birds animals and plants not found elsewhere.

On a similar note there is a move to ban or restrict controlled burning mainly because it is supposed to be a grouse shooting thing I suspect.
Without periodic burning NYMoors for example heather becomes overgrown losing vigour, then gorse and other scrubby trees take over wide areas - the result is drying out of peat and sooner or later catastrophic hot summer fires rather than cool burns done in winter.
Most of the peat will bur out down to subsoil there will then be massive erosion and gully forming.

https://www.gwct.org.uk/news/news/2019/july/new-study-reveals-huge-decline-in-bird-species-when-grouse-management-ends/



This recent survey was part funded by the RSPB - not shooting establishment

Bog lands/moorlands are a unique environment and they will have their own flora and fora.

Humm, if left to its own devices then moorland or bog will become scrub and then trees? I suspect so, to an extent anyway. And your reply indicates that bog/moorland (of the extent we see atm) are man made and kept that way by man - I think that, too, is correct. You then go on to state (in a 'project fear' way) that if man doesn't stop nature doing what it wants to there will be a catastrophic disaster - scaremonger you! 

Fires are, it seems to me, much more common on moorlands than in forests  - unless we see climate change dry this island out as per projections (which you don't think will happen?).

How far from you is the nearest grouse shoot? I don't know if it's the Pennines or if they shoot them on the NYMs.

 

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

Offline Northern Sky  
#12 Posted : 23 July 2019 10:16:57(UTC)
Northern Sky

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Posts: 3,683
Location: Leeds W Yorks

Apparently it's International Bog Day this Sunday (28th)

Yorkshire Peat Partnership will be celebrating the day by planting sphagnum moss on the summit of Buckden Pike in the Yorkshire Dales.

YPP have restored nearly 30,000 hectares of bog over the last 10 years. Well done to them 

Offline Essan  
#13 Posted : 23 July 2019 13:54:42(UTC)
Essan

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Antarctica
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A change to a wetter climate alone did not destroy the forests that once covered the Burren, Dartmoor, Elenydd or the Flow Country of Sutherland.

It needed human to chop down the trees.  Only then could the peat bogs grow.

As regards the new suggestion we bring back the peat bogs of the Fens and East Anglia: this would almost certainly result in an increase in CO2 emissions as we'd need to import the arable crops currently grown there, and to grow the extra imports needed to sustain us, more forests elsewhere would have to be burned down ....  Although it'd help the UK become carbon neutral as it'll then all be someone else's problem.  Which is probably the intent.

Reafforestation (using native trees, not blanket plantations of spruce!!! )of some upland peat areas might, however, be beneficial - especially as the climate warms and dries.

Andy

Evesham, Worcs, Albion - 35m asl

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women and there are families. And no governments can do anything except through people, and people must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then, also, to look after our neighbours - M Thatcher.

Weather & Earth Science News

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Offline AIMSIR  
#14 Posted : 27 July 2019 17:36:13(UTC)
AIMSIR

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Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea Go to Quoted Post

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess, but the Burren never struck me as being 'beautiful'. 

The Burren is man made and unnatural through deforestation as are the bogs of allen.

Why should we preserve it?.

Should we not try to re forest it and return it to it's natural beauty?.

That's the point I'm trying to get across.

If we preserve them we preserve humankinds destruction of these natural areas?

 

Edited by user 27 July 2019 17:44:08(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Online Chunky Pea  
#15 Posted : 27 July 2019 17:44:47(UTC)
Chunky Pea

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Location: East Galway, Ireland 35 m asl

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR Go to Quoted Post

The Burren is man made and unnatural through deforestation.

Why should we preserve it?.

Should we not try to re forest it?.

That's the point I'm trying to get across.

 

I honestly (and obviously) don't really know the geographic history of the Burren, but I have been there a few times and each time, I came away unimpressed. Always reminded me of some barren Palestinian wasteland or something. There are far more beautiful, scenic places in Ireland to be had in my opinion. 

"There are nights when the wolves fall silent and only the moon howls"

--George Carlin.

Offline AIMSIR  
#16 Posted : 27 July 2019 18:40:59(UTC)
AIMSIR

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Man

It's the bare bones of a landscape destroyed by man.
Why do some seem to want to preserve our man made disaster?.

The same goes for bogs, that only exist because of mankind's influence.

Why should we preserve such man made destruction of the landscape rather than return it to it's natural beauty?.

Edited by user 27 July 2019 18:45:58(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Online Chunky Pea  
#17 Posted : 27 July 2019 20:15:13(UTC)
Chunky Pea

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Location: East Galway, Ireland 35 m asl

Originally Posted by: AIMSIR Go to Quoted Post

It's the bare bones of a landscape destroyed by man.
Why do some seem to want to preserve our man made disaster?.

The same goes for bogs, that only exist because of mankind's influence.

Why should we preserve such man made destruction of the landscape rather than return it to it's natural beauty?.

I think you make some fair points there Aimsir. Ireland was well known in ancient times for its large, extensive forests and its large wolf packs that roamed the land, so much so it was known as the 'land of the wolf'. It would be wonderful to see it return to this former glory again. 

"There are nights when the wolves fall silent and only the moon howls"

--George Carlin.

Offline Lionel Hutz  
#18 Posted : 27 July 2019 23:03:02(UTC)
Lionel Hutz

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Originally Posted by: Chunky Pea Go to Quoted Post

 

I think you make some fair points there Aimsir. Ireland was well known in ancient times for its large, extensive forests and its large wolf packs that roamed the land, so much so it was known as the 'land of the wolf'. It would be wonderful to see it return to this former glory again. 

I don't generally agree with Aimsir, but I've got to admit that he raises an interesting question and a question of wide application . The Burren certainly is manmade, so why preserve it? The broader question is whether we should bother trying to preserve landscapes which are manmade but which we also consider beautiful or valuable in some way. 

I suppose that the first question relates to Aimsir's suggestion that we plant forest on the Burren. The problem there is obviously that that this would involve human intervention to change what was created by human intervention. Is that what we want? After all, the replanted forest would be artificial too. Would it create a better local ecosystem? Very hard to say. We are where we are. Human intervention has created a viable habitat. Why destroy that to manufacture a habitat which can be created elsewhere without destroying something of value? After  all,  that would simply be more human intervention. On balance, I think that we should maintain special landscapes like the Burren. Let  the wolves roam elsewhere. Although I agree that the Burren is not the most appealing visually. 

 

 

 

 

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline DEW  
#19 Posted : 28 July 2019 07:30:59(UTC)
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Maybe my interests are just oddball, but I'm fascinated by limestone scenery and botany. So I have visited the Burren and I enjoyed the place.

But to re-forest it now would require massive intervention - and re-foresting has its problems, witness the ash dieback which has done for extensively planted ashwoods in Denmark before making its way here.

Mixed forest areas (New Forest, Forest of Dean) are enjoyable but often not commercially viable. I find extensive commercial stands of conifers (Kielder) boring and depressing. So which sort of forest do you want?

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Offline AIMSIR  
#20 Posted : 28 July 2019 10:04:26(UTC)
AIMSIR

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I have to agree, those stands of conifer are a disgrace. A sterile blot on the landscape.

There is no excuse for them other than tree farming.

Edited by user 28 July 2019 10:09:48(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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