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Offline Caz  
#61 Posted : 29 May 2019 18:38:37(UTC)
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Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire, East Midlands

Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz Go to Quoted Post

Thanks - I do love my trees! The ones that I have planted are all growing well and it's lovely to see them now turning into young woodland at this stage - I started planting them nearly twenty years ago with my now deceased father. Hopefully, there will still be some space left for my two small boys to keep up the tradition when they're a little older! As well as planting, I also cut timber - we've lost quite a few trees in storms over the past few years so I've been busy with my chainsaw! 

Ash is good for burning. Ash is low moisture content so it will burn  fresh after cutting. However, I would rate the likes of oak and hawthorn as being better. However, they need at least a year of seasoning before they're fit to burn. Here's a nice guide to different timbers for firewood https://www.thestoveyard.com/resource-centre-home/what-wood-to-burn  

Awww!  That’s lovely Lionel!  I’m sure under your guidance your boys will appreciate your efforts and carry your legacy to future generations!  I hope you’ve kept a planting and observation diary!  

Sadly, I only have room for a small log store, so I have to buy my logs in ready seasoned, but my daughter is more fortunate and does have several log stores.  We always say, if cut in winter when the sap doesn’t rise, they’re ready to burn next winter but if they’re cut in summer, they’re not ready until a year the following winter!  

There’s a rhyme about how well different wood burns but the link you provided gives a more comprehensive guide.  Thank you!  

http://thankstrees.tripod.com/id16.htmlb

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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Offline Lionel Hutz  
#62 Posted : 30 May 2019 08:00:00(UTC)
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Ireland

Originally Posted by: Caz Go to Quoted Post

Awww!  That’s lovely Lionel!  I’m sure under your guidance your boys will appreciate your efforts and carry your legacy to future generations!  I hope you’ve kept a planting and observation diary!  

Sadly, I only have room for a small log store, so I have to buy my logs in ready seasoned, but my daughter is more fortunate and does have several log stores.  We always say, if cut in winter when the sap doesn’t rise, they’re ready to burn next winter but if they’re cut in summer, they’re not ready until a year the following winter!  

There’s a rhyme about how well different wood burns but the link you provided gives a more comprehensive guide.  Thank you!  

http://thankstrees.tripod.com/id16.htmlb

My guide may be more detailed but yours is much more nicely put! As for log stores, I suppose that the important thing is to have a reliable seller so that if he tells you that the logs are seasoned, you know that that will be the case. Like your daughter, I'm lucky to have a few log stores. I generally cut in the summer - more time available for outdoor work - so they need long seasoning time. However, at this stage I've got a couple of years supply so I have plenty time to wait. It's nice to cut the timber while thinking of cosy fires some future winter.

Do you know, I don't have any planting diary. I never really thought about it but, you're right, it's a really good idea. When we started, there was no long term plan. There had been a wild fire so the furze had burned and the intention was just to plant a few patches with better soil. It's just that we never really stopped, though there have been some years where for one reason and another, little or no planting was done. It's been a slow and gradual process. Maybe it's not too late to start some kind of diary even now.

 

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline bledur  
#63 Posted : 30 May 2019 12:22:47(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Lionel Hutz Go to Quoted Post

 

I'm amazed at how many of you are seeing ash dieback on your side of the Irish Sea. It has certainly reached Ireland but it's not at all visible here yet. I can't seem to find anything saying it but I'm pretty certain that I read that it seems to spread more easily in warmer and especially dryer conditions. Perhaps that will slow down its advance here. I wonder whether the effects are ash dieback are as visible in Scotland as in England or whether the Scottish situation is more like Ireland?

As for the elm, all of our mature elms died in the late 80's(bar one locally which survived until 10/15 years ago). We now have a decent few which have reached 20 and 30 feet high. The danger height for dutch elm disease is when the trees reach around 10 to 15 feet. That's the cruising height for flying of the scolytus scolytus beetle which causes the disease so that's why they get so far before the die. Apparently, the beetle doesn't really notice elms below its flight path. I'm hoping against hope that I've got some sort of resistant strain of elm but I'm resigned to the fact that they're most probably going to die before long. Still, elm makes good firewood at least.

 This is the first year it has become noticeable round here,where there are a lot of Ash. You might be right about the dry weather helping the spread of die back  after the hot dry summer last year. Think there might be a lot of good firewood about in a few years. As you say Elm burns well but is a b***er to split .

Offline Devonian  
#64 Posted : 30 May 2019 19:01:23(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bledur Go to Quoted Post

 

 This is the first year it has become noticeable round here,where there are a lot of Ash. You might be right about the dry weather helping the spread of die back  after the hot dry summer last year. Think there might be a lot of good firewood about in a few years. As you say Elm burns well but is a b***er to split .

So is dry ash, stringly stuff, certainly the seasoned ash 'rings'  (sort of 30cm diameter) we had were near impossible to split without a machine. Not too bad for splitting when unseasoned though.

What is hopeful is that a week after my OP the ash trees around here do have more leaf and life. That's not to say there isn't evidence of die back everywhere I go, just that it hasn't got them all yet.

What I've also noticed is that ashes near the river Teign seem to be suffering more than others (caveat, my road to work goes down said valley) on the valley sides. I would think it's damper nearer the river than away from it.

Edited by user 30 May 2019 20:54:17(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Offline Bugglesgate  
#65 Posted : 30 May 2019 19:09:17(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: bledur Go to Quoted Post

 

 This is the first year it has become noticeable round here,where there are a lot of Ash. You might be right about the dry weather helping the spread of die back  after the hot dry summer last year. Think there might be a lot of good firewood about in a few years. As you say Elm burns well but is a b***er to split .

 

Back in '75 we moved into an old farm house.  The condition of sale was that the previous owners had the  huge dead elms there felled.

I can certainly vouch  for the fact they were completely bastorical   to split.

Once they had given up trying to control Dutch Elm there was certainly a lot of timber  and firewood  available , so I guess the same will be true of Ash

 

 

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Offline Caz  
#66 Posted : 30 May 2019 19:14:57(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

 

So is dry ash, stringly stuff, certainly the seasoned ash 'rings'  (sort of 30cc diameter) we had were near impossible to split without a machine. Not too bad for splitting when unseasoned though.

What is hopeful is that a week after my OP the ash trees around here do have more leaf and life. That's not to say there isn't evidence of die back everywhere I go, just that it hasn't got them all yet.

What I've also noticed is that ashes near the river Teign seem to be suffering more than others (caveat, my road to work goes down said valley) on the valley sides. I would think it's damper nearer the river than away from it.

Dev, that’s good news about your leafy Ash and I do hope they continue to improve!  

My worry is that people will act too quickly at the first sign of die back and cut down the trees without giving them a chance to recover.  

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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Offline Ulric  
#67 Posted : 01 June 2019 15:49:46(UTC)
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I've watched bleeding spot canker take a lot of the horse chestnut trees around here. I haven't noticed Ash Dieback but then I hven't been looking for it. I'll make a note to check next time I walk through the woods.

I have an Indian Horse Chestnut (Aesculus Indica) that I grew from a conker many years ago. It's in a container and it's a beautiful tree. I hope it is resistant to the canker!

It is just coming into flower right now.

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Online four  
#68 Posted : 01 June 2019 18:04:34(UTC)
four

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I saw a few Ash trees definitely affected today around Kirkbymoorside south of the moors.
The ones I was suspicious of here don't look quite right but are opening small leaves.
They are down in the valley bottom and might have been touched by late frosts this year and last year.
It's quite a distinctive 'look' when older trees have it, with dead areas but little pompoms of more normal leaves holding on for a year or two.

18th May last year recorded -1.2 and -1.5 on the 12th this year, it would have been at least 1C colder in the bottom.

Edited by user 01 June 2019 18:07:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Offline AIMSIR  
#69 Posted : 02 June 2019 15:58:02(UTC)
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Is this episode unusual?.
Offline DEW  
#70 Posted : 03 June 2019 06:50:49(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AIMSIR Go to Quoted Post
Is this episode unusual?.

Giving you the benefit of the doubt, that this is a genuine question and not just sloppily phrased (what do you mean by 'this episode'?)

  • yes, in that ash trees are dying on an unprecedented scale, but...
  • no, ash trees are often the last into leaf of our native forest trees, given suitable weather conditions
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Offline NMA  
#71 Posted : 03 June 2019 07:51:44(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate Go to Quoted Post

 Back in '75 we moved into an old farm house.  The condition of sale was that the previous owners had the  huge dead elms there felled.

I can certainly vouch  for the fact they were completely bastorical   to split.

Once they had given up trying to control Dutch Elm there was certainly a lot of timber  and firewood  available , so I guess the same will be true of Ash  

I remember in the 80's repairing a wooden sluice to manage the water level on a tiny stream and needing the right kind of wood to do it. Elm is fantastic as long as it is kept either wet or completely dry and there was a timber merchant (Farwells) in the New Forest with a stash of elm they had stockpiled for many years. I doubt many UK timber merchants have any left today. Elm is useless for burning though. Unlike ash which makes a good firewood.

Had to go to Exeter last week and noticed a lot of ash trees from the county border west and around Honiton suffering from the disease. We have two medium ones on the green outside that so far look fine but they only came into leaf recently.

Offline Northern Sky  
#72 Posted : 06 June 2019 19:40:43(UTC)
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https://www.gov.uk/government/news/disease-tolerant-trees-to-be-planted-in-uks-ash-tree-archive?fbclid=IwAR2WJfAO4XmWmCuUVCA_ejGUtZM_pu9eUDi3rMoB1Qxn-7tS7IOVaYmYt-4

Ash trees demonstrating tolerance to the highly destructive tree disease ash dieback will be planted in the UK’s first ‘ash tree archive’.

This was announced by Biosecurity Minister Lord Gardiner at Royal Botanic Gardens Kew’s Millennium Seed Bank today (Thursday 6 June) as he launched the Government’s new Ash Research Strategy.

Online four  
#73 Posted : 06 June 2019 21:18:39(UTC)
four

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That's not without a negative side though as a large number of trees will be produced from a limited gene pool.

Something else will come along and take the lot.

Offline Gandalf The White  
#74 Posted : 07 June 2019 07:31:51(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
That's not without a negative side though as a large number of trees will be produced from a limited gene pool.
Something else will come along and take the lot.

Yes, and that’s the problem with cloning, which I assume is what they have in mind. The fate of the Gros Michel banana is perhaps the classic example.

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Online Roger Parsons  
#75 Posted : 07 June 2019 08:00:13(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White Go to Quoted Post

Yes, and that’s the problem with cloning, which I assume is what they have in mind. The fate of the Gros Michel banana is perhaps the classic example.

Never a good idea to have all your genetic eggs in one basket. That applies to all methods of propagation, cloning to inbreeding.

R.

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Offline Caz  
#76 Posted : 07 June 2019 15:23:03(UTC)
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I agree with the above three posts.  I think to mass plant from the same stock would be asking for trouble because if one has a weakness, they’ll all have it.  While I don’t want our Ash trees to diminish, I think we need to be patient and let our existing trees build up resistance.  We probably won’t see positive results in our lifetime but if we plant clones we might not see the negative results either. 

What we don’t know is whether Ash die back is a necessity of evolution. Survival of the fittest to strengthen our stock for the future.  I understand that there will be pressure for something to be done, but doing nothing might be the best long term solution. 

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Online Roger Parsons  
#77 Posted : 07 June 2019 15:47:11(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Caz Go to Quoted Post

I agree with the above three posts.  I think to mass plant from the same stock would be asking for trouble because if one has a weakness, they’ll all have it.  While I don’t want our Ash trees to diminish, I think we need to be patient and let our existing trees build up resistance.  We probably won’t see positive results in our lifetime but if we plant clones we might not see the negative results either. 

What we don’t know is whether Ash die back is a necessity of evolution. Survival of the fittest to strengthen our stock for the future.  I understand that there will be pressure for something to be done, but doing nothing might be the best long term solution. 

Thanks Caz. My main concern is: If you are growing from seed there is likely to be normal gene variation as a result of out-pollination but there is a balance to be struck, maximising out-pollination for diversity but nevertheless focusing on locally-evolved material for local adaptation. Make sense? Diversity versus local characteristics?

Roger

p.s. Tipping it down here! No thunder tho'.

RogerP

West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire

No county (Lincolnshire) has better churches and worse houses. The poorer sort of people wash their clothes with hog's dung, and burn dried cow's dung for want of better fuel; whence comes the Lincolnshire proverb: "Where the hogs shite soap and the cows shite fire".

Curiosities of Great Britain (c.1780)

Offline Northern Sky  
#78 Posted : 07 June 2019 16:06:46(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
That's not without a negative side though as a large number of trees will be produced from a limited gene pool.
Something else will come along and take the lot.

Surely they will take that into consideration?

 

Surely they, er, know what they are doing?

Online four  
#79 Posted : 07 June 2019 16:30:24(UTC)
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If they are tasked with multiplying up from a selection of trees assumed to be resistant that's what they'll do, those saplings will likely end up in extensive but unimaginative densely planted areas as part of green carbon offsetting schemes.
The millions of natural Ash trees will fight it out elsewhere, and the least resistant won't get mature enough to reproduce as much as the ones with more vigour. It's pretty simple really. 

Unlike Elm trees which are thought to have been vegetatively propagated as suckers from a handful of trees - possibly introduced in Roman times, Ash is a true native and has a much broader gene pool.

Offline Caz  
#80 Posted : 07 June 2019 17:20:36(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Roger Parsons Go to Quoted Post

 

Thanks Caz. My main concern is: If you are growing from seed there is likely to be normal gene variation as a result of out-pollination but there is a balance to be struck, maximising out-pollination for diversity but nevertheless focusing on locally-evolved material for local adaptation. Make sense? Diversity versus local characteristics?

Roger

p.s. Tipping it down here! No thunder tho'.

I think where plants are concerned, I think local characteristics matter more because they’ve already adapted to the local environment and are part of that ecosystem.  Bringing in non natives could upset the balance. 

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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