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Offline Devonian  
#1 Posted : 24 May 2019 13:07:04(UTC)
Devonian

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Location: East Dartmoor

It's terribly sad to see dead and dying ash trees now in my part of Devon. It has been predicted most of them will die of ash dieback but I had hoped that that was wrong. Given what I can see this year I suspect that huge losses of ash trees will be the reality.

Sadly, most people wont even know what an ash tree is let alone care. In coming years even less will know or care.

What should we, you, me, govt, do? Plant trees, and plant trees like mad. Plant trees that are drought and heat resistant. Dig deep into our pockets and support the environment. Few will do that though...

Sad times. Another thing on most people's mind I guess....

Edited by user 24 May 2019 21:02:34(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

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Offline Lionel Hutz  
#2 Posted : 24 May 2019 14:07:48(UTC)
Lionel Hutz

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Ireland

As regards Ash, I have a little hope that the Chalara may not be quite as bad as feared. I suspect that Ash will do a little better against the Chalara than Elm has done against the Scolytus scolytus beetle. It also seems to spread a little more slowly in the cooler and damper North and West. Admittedly, the above is cold comfort given that there will certainly be huge losses from Ash Dieback whatever happens. As you say, that's sad especially bearing in mind the ecological importance of the species. Even worse, a truly existential threat may be on the horizon for Ash in the shape of the Emerald Ash Borer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerald_ash_borer which has caused huge damage in the US and is on the march in Europe too. Apparently, it may reach Central Europe within the next couple of decades.

More widely, the concern has to be the sheer number of tree diseases. Of course, it has always been thus but the global transport of plants and timber products does seem to have made matters much worse e.g. this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_processionary , this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytophthora_ramorum and this https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/irish-horse-chestnut-trees-threatened-by-new-parasite-1.2759770 . Tighter regulation of plant and timber export/import is needed though I suspect that that is not feasible in the current world. An argument for Brexit and Irexit perhaps.

I'm lucky enough to have a bit of land behind the house. It's a mix of woodland but mainly furze and bracken and I've been planting it slowly for many years now. I've planted mainly broadleaves but I hope that I haven't been short sighted in so far as I haven't specifically looked for drought resistance. Then again, whatever I have planted would survive even with 20% less rainfall than we have today so hopefully they'll be alright. Mind you, I wouldn't want to see a repeat of last summer. I had to spend many evenings hauling watering cans to water any trees that I had planted during the previous winter. They more or less all survived but it was a hell of a lot of work.

Edited by user 24 May 2019 14:10:56(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline DEW  
#3 Posted : 24 May 2019 15:22:24(UTC)
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Ash die-bck is serious in this area. The Earl of Norfolk's estate at Arundel was felling tree around Swanbourne Lake before they fell on the public. The forester at the West Dean estate was also being gloomy about prospects for his woods. 

There are apparently some trees with resistance 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/22/betty-the-ash-tree-offers-hope-against-deadly-dieback-disease-resistance

and more recently, last Autumn I saw a flourishing ash tree amid many dead/dying ones by Chanctonbury Ring. I must go back this year and see if it's still going strong.

Another moral of this story is that mass cloning leads to trouble. Chalara fungus exploded its range when a particularly susceptible clone was used to re-afforest large areas of Denmark. The Danes weren't aware of the problem before they started planting, of course.

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Online four  
#4 Posted : 24 May 2019 18:01:24(UTC)
four

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A number of trees appeared to be starting with it here last year, I thought they might not come in leaf this time but are mostly attempting.

Ash is always late to leaf here and some trees aren't fully open by longest day some years.

A friend is Sussex says theirs have been roughly half affected, however about half the ones with it seemed to look unhappy for a couple of years then gradually recover or at least hold their own.

Also some trees which have 'died' and been felled have grown up as coppice looking reasonably normal.

It may be like Elm disease regularly killing back regrowth when it gets to about 10-15 years.

Offline Bugglesgate  
#5 Posted : 24 May 2019 19:21:18(UTC)
Bugglesgate

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Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

It's terribly sad to see dead and dying ash trees now in my part of Devon. It has been predicted most of them will die of ash dieback but I had hoped that that was wrong. Given what I can see this year I suspect that huge losses of ash trees will be the reality.

Sadly, most people wont even know what an ash tree is let alone care. In coming years even less will know or care.

What should we, you, me, govt, do? Plant trees, and plant trees like mad. Plant trees that are drought and heat resistant. Did deep into our pockets and support the environment. Few will do that though...

Sad times. Another thing on most people's mind I guess....

 

Fortunately, not too bad in this area yet - but it's  probably only a matter of time.  Planting trees sounds sane, but what type ? 

Probably one of the most bomb proof is Yew, but it's not to everyone's taste   to have a garden full of them

Chris

Between Newbury and Basingstoke

"When they are giving you their all, some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy banging your heart against some mad buggers wall"

Offline Caz  
#6 Posted : 24 May 2019 19:41:30(UTC)
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Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire, East Midlands

Originally Posted by: DEW Go to Quoted Post

Ash die-bck is serious in this area. The Earl of Norfolk's estate at Arundel was felling tree around Swanbourne Lake before they fell on the public. The forester at the West Dean estate was also being gloomy about prospects for his woods. 

There are apparently some trees with resistance 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/22/betty-the-ash-tree-offers-hope-against-deadly-dieback-disease-resistance

and more recently, last Autumn I saw a flourishing ash tree amid many dead/dying ones by Chanctonbury Ring. I must go back this year and see if it's still going strong.

Another moral of this story is that mass cloning leads to trouble. Chalara fungus exploded its range when a particularly susceptible clone was used to re-afforest large areas of Denmark. The Danes weren't aware of the problem before they started planting, of course.

Was going to say exactly the same about resistance and cloning.  

I know it’s worrying to see our native trees missing from the countryside but I don’t think being in a rush to replace them with resistant strains is the answer because they’ll probably be susceptible to another fungal disease in the future if they’re cultured.  I think the survivors of the current problems are the future.  We do have some Ash trees that are naturally resistant and they’ll eventually multiply as strong trees - survival of the fittest etc.  

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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Offline Devonian  
#7 Posted : 24 May 2019 19:43:29(UTC)
Devonian

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Location: East Dartmoor

Originally Posted by: Bugglesgate Go to Quoted Post

 

 

Fortunately, not too bad in this area yet - but it's  probably only a matter of time.  Planting trees sounds sane, but what type ? 

Probably one of the most bomb proof is Yew, but it's not to everyone's taste   to have a garden full of them

Lime is a lovely tree and still rather forgotten. The ones we have planted are doing well. And I've come around to liking sycamore, it's a rather better tree than I used to think it was.

But, the ash tree? Its just so sad to see such a pointless, careless, and huge loss. The cost will enormous - just to keep roads safe from rotting trees (apparently, once dead the fungus rapidly rots the wood too). And all because an X number of people couldn't be arsed with Y expense of biosecurity at some point in the past...

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

Offline Devonian  
#8 Posted : 24 May 2019 19:53:56(UTC)
Devonian

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Joined: 02/05/2006(UTC)
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Location: East Dartmoor

Originally Posted by: DEW Go to Quoted Post

Ash die-bck is serious in this area. The Earl of Norfolk's estate at Arundel was felling tree around Swanbourne Lake before they fell on the public. The forester at the West Dean estate was also being gloomy about prospects for his woods. 

There are apparently some trees with resistance 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/22/betty-the-ash-tree-offers-hope-against-deadly-dieback-disease-resistance

and more recently, last Autumn I saw a flourishing ash tree amid many dead/dying ones by Chanctonbury Ring. I must go back this year and see if it's still going strong.

Another moral of this story is that mass cloning leads to trouble. Chalara fungus exploded its range when a particularly susceptible clone was used to re-afforest large areas of Denmark. The Danes weren't aware of the problem before they started planting, of course.

Was ash 'cloned'? All identical, grown from cuttings or something you mean? I'm not aware it was/is but I really don't know. I do know ash grows readily from seed, that's how I'd guessed it was produced, more a 'breed' than a clone.

They do say the elms we're actually just a relatively few individual trees that suckered massively.

 

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

Offline Northern Sky  
#9 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:11:03(UTC)
Northern Sky

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Joined: 16/08/2010(UTC)
Posts: 3,620
Location: Leeds W Yorks

Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

 

Lime is a lovely tree and still rather forgotten. The ones we have planted are doing well. And I've come around to liking sycamore, it's a rather better tree than I used to think it was.

But, the ash tree? Its just so sad to see such a pointless, careless, and huge loss. The cost will enormous - just to keep roads safe from rotting trees (apparently, once dead the fungus rapidly rots the wood too). And all because an X number of people couldn't be arsed with Y expense of biosecurity at some point in the past...

Sycamore gets a bit of a bad press with many conservationists for being a non native and not supporting many species. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and in particular it supports many lichens. 

Not seen a great deal of evidence for ash dieback here but I think it's only a matter of time.

Online four  
#10 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:31:26(UTC)
four

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I don't think they were cloned, Ash grows like a weed it is very easy and fast from seed.

That's why it has been grown widely and planted as carbon offset schemes.

It didn't help that UK tree nurseries could not keep up with demand for such projects and a great many infected saplings were imported from the diseased areas on the near continent.

Offline Devonian  
#11 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:37:22(UTC)
Devonian

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Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
I don't think they were cloned, Ash grows like a weed it is very easy and fast from seed.
.

..

Agreed, though I think the word is/will be 'grew'...

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

Offline Lionel Hutz  
#12 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:51:03(UTC)
Lionel Hutz

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 05/04/2006(UTC)
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Ireland

Originally Posted by: Devonian Go to Quoted Post

 

Lime is a lovely tree and still rather forgotten. The ones we have planted are doing well. And I've come around to liking sycamore, it's a rather better tree than I used to think it was.

But, the ash tree? Its just so sad to see such a pointless, careless, and huge loss. The cost will enormous - just to keep roads safe from rotting trees (apparently, once dead the fungus rapidly rots the wood too). And all because an X number of people couldn't be arsed with Y expense of biosecurity at some point in the past...

I think that Lime, as well as being a stunning tree, is one that would be suited by a warmer climate certainly, though I'm not sure that it would appreciate dryer weather. AFAIK, Lime struggles to seed in the UK and certainly struggles here in Ireland, unlike on the continent. Apparently, Lime was abundant in England thousands of years ago, possibly during warmer and dryer climactic conditions. 

While I'm not at all a fan of Sycamore, I have to grudgingly admire its toughness and ability to colonise. It's a useful timber tree too. While only a good as opposed to excellent firewood, it's very good for coppicing so periodic harvesting of Sycamore in a managed woodland is feasible. 

As regards the origins of Chalara, many experts suspect some of the Chalara infection may be wind borne direct from the continent. No doubt,  some of it was brought in on imported trees but it would most likely have reached the UK no matter what biosecurity measures were in place. 

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline Lionel Hutz  
#13 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:55:39(UTC)
Lionel Hutz

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Ireland

Originally Posted by: Northern Sky Go to Quoted Post

 

Sycamore gets a bit of a bad press with many conservationists for being a non native and not supporting many species. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and in particular it supports many lichens. 

Not seen a great deal of evidence for ash dieback here but I think it's only a matter of time.

Sycamore is most probably non native but there are a some experts who believe that it's been here for longer than is popularly believed and that it's been present in the UK since long before its traditional introduction date of the medieval period. 

One issue with Sycamore from a biodiversity point of view is the deep shade that it casts in woodland which tends to discourage undergrowth etc.

Edited by user 24 May 2019 21:00:20(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline Lionel Hutz  
#14 Posted : 24 May 2019 20:59:59(UTC)
Lionel Hutz

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Man
Ireland

Originally Posted by: DEW Go to Quoted Post

Ash die-bck is serious in this area. The Earl of Norfolk's estate at Arundel was felling tree around Swanbourne Lake before they fell on the public. The forester at the West Dean estate was also being gloomy about prospects for his woods. 

There are apparently some trees with resistance 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/apr/22/betty-the-ash-tree-offers-hope-against-deadly-dieback-disease-resistance

and more recently, last Autumn I saw a flourishing ash tree amid many dead/dying ones by Chanctonbury Ring. I must go back this year and see if it's still going strong.

Another moral of this story is that mass cloning leads to trouble. Chalara fungus exploded its range when a particularly susceptible clone was used to re-afforest large areas of Denmark. The Danes weren't aware of the problem before they started planting, of course.

I didn't know that about the Danish Ash trees. When Chalara first arrived, only a 10% survival rate for infected Ash was predicted based on the Danish experience. What you say suggests that Denmark may have been something of an outlier so we have grounds to hope for a better outcome here. I'm glad to say that I have seen no Chalara in Ireland so far although it is present here and surely only a matter of time before I see it. 

 

Lionel Hutz

Nr.Waterford , S E Ireland

68m ASL

Offline Devonian  
#15 Posted : 24 May 2019 21:00:21(UTC)
Devonian

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Location: East Dartmoor

Btw, is it 'ash' or 'Ash'? I've used 'ash' but 'Ash' looks better to me. Some punctuations? Sheesshh.

Wrt how Chalara (capitalised...) got here, I must do more reading but while I thought I remember it didn't get to the UK by wind, the sudden appearance of the disease in an advanced stage hereabout this year is very marked (though I've been checking more this year, having heard it will be seen this year) and it makes me wonder if it spread here suddenly sometime in the past. It can't have got into every wood via people's, animals, feet in a time period to make it all appear in a year, so wind spread seems likely to me.

Edited by user 24 May 2019 21:03:03(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

"In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way"

Nigel Farage, Daily Mirror, 16/5/2016

"I think the mistake the government made - led by Theresa May - from the start was to try and claim that a country that had voted 17 million to leave the EU, 16 million to stay, wanted a 100% Brexit"

Osborne, 22/12/18.

Offline DEW  
#16 Posted : 24 May 2019 21:14:49(UTC)
DEW

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Location: Chichester 12m. asl

Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
I don't think they were cloned, Ash grows like a weed it is very easy and fast from seed.
That's why it has been grown widely and planted as carbon offset schemes.
It didn't help that UK tree nurseries could not keep up with demand for such projects and a great many infected saplings were imported from the diseased areas on the near continent.

I was relying on my memory and a newspaper report from a couple of years back - a dangerous combination!

 

I've been back and checked, but there's a lot of conflicting info. However I'm reasonably confident that

a) extensive planting has taken place

b) the disease affects young trees more than older ones and thus recent plantings are at risk

c) there is also a genetic component to the risk, with estimates from 2-10% of trees resistant (depends on your definition of resistant)

I can't find a specific reference to 'cloning' or rooting cuttings, but it seems likely that if the young trees for planting were commercially supplied, they would be at least likely to have been grown from seed from trees gathered locally to the nursery, i.e. from related genomes.

It was most foule weather ... and so we went into an alehouse - Samuel Pepys
Online Roger Parsons  
#17 Posted : 25 May 2019 00:58:12(UTC)
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Some years ago local horticultural firm was badly hit by "Ash Die Back" - partly I believe because they were having their tree propagation done in Europe. A very useful page on tree diseases is [unsurprisingly] run by the Forestry Commission. See:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/find-a-specific-tree-pest-or-disease

For Chalara ash dieback, aka Hymenoscyphus fraxineus, including a distribution map, visit this page: https://www.forestresear...hymenoscyphus-fraxineus/


This is a really useful piece, and includes tips for the public on biosecurity measures. i.e.

"Visitors to woods, forests, parks and public gardens can help to minimise the spread of chalara ash dieback and other plant diseases. They can do this by brushing soil, mud, twigs, leaves and other plant debris off their footwear and wheels - including the wheels of cars, bicycles, mountain bikes, baby buggies and wheelchairs - before leaving the site. They should then wash these items at home before visiting another similar site.

Where possible, park motor vehicles on hard-standing, such as tarmac, concrete or gravel, rather than on grassed surfaces when visiting such sites.

Many mountain-biking trails are in forests, and we strongly encourage mountain-bikers, before they leave, to use the on-site wash-down facilities available at many trail centres. If you do arrive with a dirty bike, please use the wash-down facility before entering the forest so that you do not accidentally introduce chalara or some other plant disease.

Gardeners, and managers of parks and other sites where ash trees might occur in small numbers, can help to slow the local spread of the disease by collecting up and burning (where permitted), burying or deep composting fallen ash leaves. This disrupts the fungus's life cycle.

If composting the leaves, cover them with with a 10cm (4-inch) layer of soil or a 15-30cm (6-12 inches) layer of other plant material, and leave the heap undisturbed for a year (other than covering it with more material). This is likely to prevent any spore dispersal."

Roger

p.s. The Woodland Trust have a useful "Tree Disease" page too. https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/tree-diseases-and-pests/key-threats/

You can apply to them for for free trees or buy saplings from their shop.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/plant-trees/

 

 

 

 

Edited by user 25 May 2019 06:27:59(UTC)  | Reason: addition

RogerP

West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire

No county (Lincolnshire) has better churches and worse houses. The poorer sort of people wash their clothes with hog's dung, and burn dried cow's dung for want of better fuel; whence comes the Lincolnshire proverb: "Where the hogs shite soap and the cows shite fire".

Curiosities of Great Britain (c.1780)

Online Roger Parsons  
#18 Posted : 25 May 2019 06:36:51(UTC)
Roger Parsons

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Originally Posted by: Northern Sky Go to Quoted Post

Sycamore gets a bit of a bad press with many conservationists for being a non native and not supporting many species. I'm not sure that's entirely correct and in particular it supports many lichens. 

Not seen a great deal of evidence for ash dieback here but I think it's only a matter of time.

A Botany-professor colleague put me right on this, NS. A layperson's view of epiphytic lichens is that they are indicators of good air quality and therefore are good news. I was told "There are certain species that are indicative of poor air quality and an unhealthy enviroment due to pollutants such as nitrates and ammonia compounds." Believe it or not - there is an App about this!!!!!

http://www.apis.ac.uk/nitrogen-lichen-field-manual

There you go - another lifetime's interest...

BTW - although Sycamore is a naturalised non-native species it may well come into its own with an increase in UK temperatures that are more in keeping with its central/southern Europe origins.

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/visiting-woods/trees-woods-and-wildlife/british-trees/common-non-native-trees/sycamore/

 

Roger

 

Edited by user 25 May 2019 06:40:41(UTC)  | Reason: addition

RogerP

West Lindsey district of Lincolnshire

No county (Lincolnshire) has better churches and worse houses. The poorer sort of people wash their clothes with hog's dung, and burn dried cow's dung for want of better fuel; whence comes the Lincolnshire proverb: "Where the hogs shite soap and the cows shite fire".

Curiosities of Great Britain (c.1780)

Offline Caz  
#19 Posted : 25 May 2019 11:12:37(UTC)
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Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire, East Midlands

We’ve been bringing non native tree species here for generations, particularly to plant in stately gardens and arboretums and I wonder how much cross pollination has occurred or how much potential damage might have been done years ago!  Probably not as much as in recent years with our quest to grow plants with specific properties and produce cultivars, which has included cloning, although I don’t know for certain about Ash.  But the fact is, our countryside has evolved, with our help and not always with hindsight. 

It wouldn’t be wise to plant swathes of a single tree species to replace Elm and Ash, as that would just facilitate the spread of any future fungal disease.  I think re-planting has to be mixed and preferably the local saplings of those that have resisted recent blights. 

Edited by user 25 May 2019 12:42:28(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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Offline Caz  
#20 Posted : 27 May 2019 07:09:01(UTC)
Caz

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Posts: 17,844
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Location: Market Warsop, Nottinghamshire, East Midlands

Another concern about the spread of plant disease. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-48383730

This one is carried by the Spittlebug and can affect Sycamore and Oak as well as Ash.  As yet, it hasn’t been found in the UK but has affected Olive trees in Italy and the British public are being asked to be on the alert.  It also affects Lavender, so Norfolk growers need to be especially vigilant.

It puts me in mind of the damaging Lily Beetle, which is a recent import from Europe and is now quite widespread in the UK.  It begs the question of whether the current regulations for importing plants need to be reviewed. 

Market Warsop, North Nottinghamshire.

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