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Offline Gandalf The White  
#1 Posted : 09 June 2013 11:12:24(UTC)
Gandalf The White

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http://arctic-roos.org/observations/satellite-data/sea-ice/


Better than some recent years but still at or below the 1979-2006 mean


Still no update on the IJIS site.


Temperatures tracking a degree or two below the average still


http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Edited by moderator 26 September 2013 14:00:30(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
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Offline Quantum  
#2 Posted : 09 June 2013 15:22:42(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White Go to Quoted Post


http://arctic-roos.org/observations/satellite-data/sea-ice/


Better than some recent years but still at or below the 1979-2006 mean


Still no update on the IJIS site.


Temperatures tracking a degree or two below the average still


http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php



It is actually fairly unusual to get such cold conditions over the basin 


http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/psd/tmp/composites/compday.86.150.111.178.159.9.18.5.gif


(for two days ago)


at this time of year when variability in temperature decreases rapidally. I spotted a -8C over the basin earlier today which must be quite rare.


It looks like this cyclone has alot to answer for, unfortunately the early cold and cloudiness didn't help that much in 2007, especially after a ferocious dipole set up. We know this low cannot last forvever, I am sure the carnage will begin once it finally disapates. 


However I admit, there are examples pre-2007 when even stronger lows did virtually no damage at all, indeed they promoted ice stability, even growth. I am tempted, as many other people are to point the finger at ice thinness being a cause, which it certainly is. But we are loosing sunlight and heat as we speak, and in the arctic it is a continuous process of heating and melting; melting which hasn't even begun in the central arctic. 


 


One further thing to chew over: Arctic oscilation looks to be moving into a slightly positive phase after having been neutral for a couple of weeks. 

Edited by user 09 June 2013 15:26:15(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#3 Posted : 09 June 2013 19:52:00(UTC)
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CT shows another 150 drop today so that's near 400knsq in the central basin over the last 2 days??? We call it ' The cliff' and it appears , no matter what synoptic, the name is earned?

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
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Offline four  
#4 Posted : 09 June 2013 19:58:51(UTC)
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It seems quite difficult to paint a picture of catastrophic melting really.

 

SHOW EXTERNAL IMAGES

User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#5 Posted : 09 June 2013 20:02:29(UTC)
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Hi Dude!


Let's see how the month pans out via your denial of what can be eh?

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
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Offline Solar Cycles  
#6 Posted : 09 June 2013 20:07:28(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: four Go to Quoted Post
It seems quite difficult to paint a picture of catastrophic melting really.

It's looking very good news if this trend continues, well for those of us not obsessed by mans attempt at terminating all life as we know it. I think we are seeing far more favourable conditions for ice retention than we've seen in a number of years. Fingers crossed the trend continues, except for the doom mongers amongst us that is.
User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#7 Posted : 09 June 2013 20:15:24(UTC)
Gray-Wolf

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Solar Cycles Shame on You!!!


Have the past 6 years been absent in your head???


The lurkers might not know that over the past 6 years everything is turned on it's head in the Arctic with Sea areas , once famed for their growth of ice, eating it and synoptics once famed for saving ice flaming it?


Shame on you !!!


All is not well in the Arctic!

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
Offline John Mason  
#8 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:06:20(UTC)
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GW - there will be denialism so long as there is Mankind. Comes with the territory!
User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#9 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:11:02(UTC)
Gray-Wolf

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I understand John, honestly I do! but total denialism of the facts laid bare????


There is a line for each and every one of us and , for me, that crossed the line?


It's like lying to children and claiming you did it for their own best interests????


Shame on S.C., shame on him!

Edited by user 09 June 2013 21:19:54(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
Offline polarwind  
#10 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:23:00(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


Solar Cycles Shame on You!!!


Have the past 6 years been absent in your head???


The lurkers might not know that over the past 6 years everything is turned on it's head in the Arctic with Sea areas , once famed for their growth of ice, eating it and synoptics once famed for saving ice flaming it?


Shame on you !!!


All is not well in the Arctic!


What do you put this down to?

Edited by user 11 June 2013 09:57:08(UTC)  | Reason: put

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
Offline Quantum  
#11 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:27:45(UTC)
Quantum

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Joined: 27/11/2009(UTC)
Posts: 17,861

Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


Solar Cycles Shame on You!!!


Have the past 6 years been absent in your head???


The lurkers might not know that over the past 6 years everything is turned on it's head in the Arctic with Sea areas , once famed for their growth of ice, eating it and synoptics once famed for saving ice flaming it?


Shame on you !!!


All is not well in the Arctic!


What do you this down to?



For crying out loud there was as much as 10x as much ice volume wise 30 years ago as there was last year during the minimun. There has never been so little ice in the last 2000 years estimated. Now are we going to keep this sensible and discuss the current situ in the cryosphere or is this going to turn into another childish AGW debate. The people at netweather and Nevan will be laughing at the state of TWOs climate forum. 


 


Now, AO becoming slightly positive in the arctic, cyclone set to intensify as warm air makes progress across Canada, ice area finally starting to decrease properly: Discuss. 

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Offline polarwind  
#12 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:34:35(UTC)
polarwind

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Originally Posted by: Quantum Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


Solar Cycles Shame on You!!!


Have the past 6 years been absent in your head???


The lurkers might not know that over the past 6 years everything is turned on it's head in the Arctic with Sea areas , once famed for their growth of ice, eating it and synoptics once famed for saving ice flaming it?


Shame on you !!!


All is not well in the Arctic!


What do you this down to?



For crying out loud there was as much as 10x as much ice volume wise 30 years ago as there was last year during the minimun. There has never been so little ice in the last 2000 years estimated. Now are we going to keep this sensible and discuss the current situ in the cryosphere or is this going to turn into another childish AGW debate. The people at netweather and Nevan will be laughing at the state of TWOs climate forum. 


 


Now, AO becoming slightly positive in the arctic, cyclone set to intensify as warm air makes progress across Canada, ice area finally starting to decrease properly: Discuss. 


I don't disagree; I think the 2000 year bit, highly questionable, but my question to GW, and I now ask you the same question, what do you put this down to?

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
Offline four  
#13 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:37:49(UTC)
four

Rank: Advanced Member

Joined: 07/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 19,983
Location: N.Y.Moors

Is there a setting on some browsers which blocks the Norsex graph, or perhaps inverts it (sounds oddly familiar )

User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#14 Posted : 09 June 2013 21:46:37(UTC)
Gray-Wolf

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Location: Mytholmroyd

The currentv stateof the Arctic ( IMHO) is down to the gargantuan loss of ice since the 1940's bringing volume to the point that large section of the polar ice cap is now unsustainable over an 'average Arctic summer'?


The losses , since 07' have effectively left the basin bereft of any ice over 10yrs old and no ice with a keel grater than 4m (instead of the 10m keeled ice that was common in pre 1940 destcriptors of ice conditions in various sectors of the basin?).


We can see that FY ice will melt out quite happily over and 'average season' and if ,as recent behaviour shows, ice is making sub 2.5m over winter what are we to expect?


The problem with the Arctic occurred pre 1970 (IMHO) and left a basin primed for the Fram losses we saw through the winters of the late 70's/early 80's.


The rest, as they say, is History ( so go refresh your memory!)


EDIT: Baffin and hudson now look primed for high losses? Cliff anyone?

Edited by user 09 June 2013 21:48:19(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
beaufort  
#15 Posted : 10 June 2013 07:36:13(UTC)
Guest

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Posts: 6,714

Since this got such a hysterical reaction in the other thread I'll post it in here as well. Not quite sure why it got the reaction it did.


http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/meant80n.uk.php

Offline polarwind  
#16 Posted : 10 June 2013 09:31:04(UTC)
polarwind

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Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


The currentv stateof the Arctic ( IMHO) is down to the gargantuan loss of ice since the 1940's bringing volume to the point that large section of the polar ice cap is now unsustainable over an 'average Arctic summer'?


The losses , since 07' have effectively left the basin bereft of any ice over 10yrs old and no ice with a keel grater than 4m (instead of the 10m keeled ice that was common in pre 1940 destcriptors of ice conditions in various sectors of the basin?).


We can see that FY ice will melt out quite happily over and 'average season' and if ,as recent behaviour shows, ice is making sub 2.5m over winter what are we to expect?


The problem with the Arctic occurred pre 1970 (IMHO) and left a basin primed for the Fram losses we saw through the winters of the late 70's/early 80's.


The rest, as they say, is History ( so go refresh your memory!)


EDIT: Baffin and hudson now look primed for high losses? Cliff anyone?


Would you want to say anything about this Arctic ice map of 1938?



Many more maps of intertest here

SHOW EXTERNAL IMAGES

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
User is suspended until 31/01/2293 12:26:49(UTC) Gray-Wolf  
#17 Posted : 10 June 2013 09:39:17(UTC)
Gray-Wolf

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Location: Mytholmroyd

When we were first treated to those maps ( and 'yes' i've studied them with interest ) I cautioned that a '2d' map did not show the full picture by a long way. for instance we had an ice island so large it was tracked on radar for many years in amongst that 'sea ice' and it was not alone in it's 'scale' compared to what measly amounts we see today?


When you look at the area 'ice free' in the map what jumps out at you? Well to me it highlights the shallow shelf sea area, fed by the rivers that flow off eurasia, of the basin and in a hot year which areas would you suppose would lose ice first?


Explorers and ships data show that such massive ice existed as to preclude entrance into the basin Via NE Greenland and that Barentsz was populated by massive Paleocryistic ice (four storeys high in the water).


It does , however, highlight the changes that were ongoing. the massive ice island was part of the crumbling ward Hunt Ice shelf so even then the turn around in northern hemisphere cooling was having impact?

Koyaanisqatsi
ko.yaa.nis.katsi (from the Hopi language), n. 1. crazy life. 2. life in turmoil. 3. life disintegrating. 4. life out of balance. 5. a state of life that calls for another way of living.
VIRESCIT VULNERE VIRTUS
Offline Gandalf The White  
#18 Posted : 10 June 2013 09:46:09(UTC)
Gandalf The White

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Joined: 12/04/2006(UTC)
Posts: 40,253
Man

Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


The currentv stateof the Arctic ( IMHO) is down to the gargantuan loss of ice since the 1940's bringing volume to the point that large section of the polar ice cap is now unsustainable over an 'average Arctic summer'?


The losses , since 07' have effectively left the basin bereft of any ice over 10yrs old and no ice with a keel grater than 4m (instead of the 10m keeled ice that was common in pre 1940 destcriptors of ice conditions in various sectors of the basin?).


We can see that FY ice will melt out quite happily over and 'average season' and if ,as recent behaviour shows, ice is making sub 2.5m over winter what are we to expect?


The problem with the Arctic occurred pre 1970 (IMHO) and left a basin primed for the Fram losses we saw through the winters of the late 70's/early 80's.


The rest, as they say, is History ( so go refresh your memory!)


EDIT: Baffin and hudson now look primed for high losses? Cliff anyone?


Would you want to say anything about this Arctic ice map of 1938?



Many more maps of intertest here



I wonder if there's a reason you used "here" as your link, rather than openly showing it as:


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/02/cache-of-historical-arctic-sea-ice-maps-discovered/


We have had a lively discussion before about the use of historical charts - with Stephen, with Four to name but two.  


I am afraid I remain sceptical of the use of a self-acclaimed sceptical/denial site as a source of 'information' when it should be abundantly clear that the site is only ever looking for evidence on one side of the argument.

SHOW EXTERNAL IMAGES

Location: South Cambridgeshire
130 metres ASL
52.0N 0.1E
Offline polarwind  
#19 Posted : 10 June 2013 10:11:36(UTC)
polarwind

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Joined: 04/05/2006(UTC)
Posts: 8,754
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Location: Derby

Originally Posted by: Gandalf The White Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: polarwind Go to Quoted Post


Originally Posted by: Gray-Wolf Go to Quoted Post


The currentv stateof the Arctic ( IMHO) is down to the gargantuan loss of ice since the 1940's bringing volume to the point that large section of the polar ice cap is now unsustainable over an 'average Arctic summer'?


The losses , since 07' have effectively left the basin bereft of any ice over 10yrs old and no ice with a keel grater than 4m (instead of the 10m keeled ice that was common in pre 1940 destcriptors of ice conditions in various sectors of the basin?).


We can see that FY ice will melt out quite happily over and 'average season' and if ,as recent behaviour shows, ice is making sub 2.5m over winter what are we to expect?


The problem with the Arctic occurred pre 1970 (IMHO) and left a basin primed for the Fram losses we saw through the winters of the late 70's/early 80's.


The rest, as they say, is History ( so go refresh your memory!)


EDIT: Baffin and hudson now look primed for high losses? Cliff anyone?


Would you want to say anything about this Arctic ice map of 1938?



Many more maps of intertest here



I wonder if there's a reason you used "here" as your link, rather than openly showing it as:


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/05/02/cache-of-historical-arctic-sea-ice-maps-discovered/


We have had a lively discussion before about the use of historical charts - with Stephen, with Four to name but two.  


I am afraid I remain sceptical of the use of a self-acclaimed sceptical/denial site as a source of 'information' when it should be abundantly clear that the site is only ever looking for evidence on one side of the argument.


Yes there is - it's easier - because I've not changed the settings to allow me to directly cut and paste (with the way I write posts). I'm still learning to manipulate my Mac.


I make use of any information that seems reasonable and these maps have a very very good pedigree, I believe. And you are wrong in your statement too, that "the site is only ever looking for evidence on one side ....."


See for yourself - here

SHOW EXTERNAL IMAGES

"The professional standards of science must impose a framework of discipline and at the same time encourage rebellion against it". – Michael Polyani (1962)
"If climate science is sound and accurate, then it should be able to respond effectively to all the points raised…." - Grandad
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts". - Bertrand Russell
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of the experts" – Richard Feynman
"A consensus means that everyone agrees to say collectively what no one believes individually.”- Abba Eban, Israeli diplomat
Dave,Derby
beaufort  
#20 Posted : 10 June 2013 11:19:53(UTC)
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It's not unprecedented, the submarines USS Skate and Nautilus surfaced at the North Pole in the winter of 1958.


 

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